Tag Archives: Attendances

Where Were You?

Fairly early on in the game between Manchester City and Arsenal the fans of the London club started to sing the old ‘Where were you when you were…’ chant. You’d think they’d know because often City were attracting better crowds than Arsenal. Let’s look at 1982-83 when I experienced my first relegation as a City fan. Back then City were the 4th best supported club (26,789) and Arsenal were 6th (24,153) – see the average attendance table above. City finished in a relegation position and Arsenal were 10th.

The following season Arsenal did attract a better average than City but they were the 5th best supported club in the entire 4 divisions and City were the 6th. In terms of League position Arsenal were 6th and City were 4th in Division Two.

We could talk about the late 1990s but neither club had a ground that could satisfy the demand to see them, so a sell out Maine Road in 1998-99 for third tier City has to compare with a sell out Highbury for title challenging Arsenal.

Since then stadium size has dictated average support but if we go back to earlier decades and assume that Arsenal’s ‘Where were you when you were sh*t’ refers to City heading towards relegation or being out of the top flight then City’s record is impressive overall. In 1965-66 (the last 2nd division season before the 1980s) City averaged 27,739 (10th best in entire League) while First Division Arsenal were the 9th best supported club on 29,036.

We can jump back even further. In the 1920s Arsenal were perceived as a popular club and in 1925-26 they averaged 31,471 – the 3rd best in the League. Where were City? Oh, City who were relegated that season were the 2nd best supported team with an average of almost 32,000. Not much more than Arsenal but the Gunners were 2nd in the League and City were relegated!

The year after Second Division City were the 3rd best supported club and top flight Arsenal were 4th!

1926-27 Average attendances. Manchester City in Second Division

The year after that (1927-28) Second Division City were the best supported club in the entire League with 37,468. Where were top flight Arsenal? 7th best supported with 27,434.

1927-28 Average attendances. Manchester City were the best supported club despite being in Second Division

It’s all a nonsense but if Arsenal fans, or any other team, want to sing songs like this then it would help if they knew their own history of support.

The 1900s: 1903-1904 The FA Cup

Continuing the series of features on Manchester City in the early 1900s! Today it’s a 9400 (yes that’s right!) word article telling the story of 1903-04 when Manchester won its first major trophy. If you’re a subscriber you’ll need to get a brew before reading this celebration of that season. If you’re not a subscriber then why not?

Ever wondered how Manchester found its first major trophy success or what the scandal that rocked City was all about? Then subscribe and read this series of articles.

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The 1900s: 1902-1903 Maley’s The Man

Continuing the series of features on Manchester City in the early 1900s! Today it’s a 1400 word article telling the story of 1902-03 when Celtic legend Tom Maley became City boss.

Ever wondered how Manchester found its first major trophy success or what the scandal that rocked City was all about? Then subscribe and read this series of articles.

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The 1900s: 1899-1900 Attendances

The series of features on the 1900s starts today with a simple look at the average attendances of league clubs. I’m publishing the statistics here for season 1899-1900 when Manchester City was a First Division club for the first time. They were the third best supported club – the highest position either Manchester team had enjoyed up to that point. In fact City had been the best supported club for the opening months of the season as the heading photo shows (that’s from 20 January 1900).

All these figures are estimated based on newspaper reports of the period but are widely accepted as a good indication of support enjoyed at each club.

Manchester City with the Second Division Shield, 1899

In the following table every team is in Division One unless (2) appears after their name. This indicates they were a Second Division club that season. Where two teams have the same average then these have been listed in alphabetic order.

1899-1900 Average Attendances

AverageTeam
19825Aston Villa
16725Newcastle
16000Manchester City
12925Everton
11325Liverpool
11175Sheff Utd
10475Sunderland
8950Notts County
8125Derby
7875Nottm Forest
7700Stoke
7150Sheff Wed (2)
6575Wolves
6475Blackburn
6250Leicester Fosse (2)
6225Newton Heath (2)
6175WBA
5925Burnley
5925Middlesbrough (2)
5775Bury
5050Small Heath (2)
4825Preston
4800Bolton (2)
4125Woolwich Arsenal (2)
4000Glossop
3775Grimsby (2)
3775Lincoln (2)
2950Chesterfield (2)
2875New Brighton Tower (2)
2525Walsall (2)
2400Barnsley (2)
1875Gainsborough Trinity (2)
1675Burslem Port Vale (2)
1650Loughborough (2)
1650Luton (2)
1500Burton Swifts (2)

This series of features covers Manchester City in the opening years of the twentieth century. Why not subscribe and read every feature?

Tomorrow there’ll be a subscriber article on the 1900-01 season in a similar style to those recently posted on the 1890s. Here’s an 1800 article below on Manchester City in the final months of 1899:

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The 1890s: 1898-99 Attendances

The series of features on the 1890s continues today with a simple look at the average attendances of league clubs. I’m publishing the statistics here for season 1898-99 when Manchester City was a Second Division club – but look where they are in the attendance table! These figures are estimated based on newspaper reports of the period but are widely accepted as a good indication of support enjoyed at each club.

Glossop North End 1898

In the following table every team is in Division One unless (2) appears after their name. This indicates they were a Second Division club that season. Where two teams have the same average then these have been listed in alphabetic order.

1897-9 Average Attendances

AverageTeam
20675Aston Villa
18150Newcastle
14525Everton
13975Liverpool
12300Sunderland
10675Notts County
10000Manchester City (2)
9850Sheff Utd
9400Blackburn Rovers
8875Sheff Wed
8850Nottm Forest
8025Stoke
7775Newton Heath (2)
7550Wolves
7450Leicester Fosse (2)
7325Bolton
7225Derby
6125Burnley
6025Preston
5775Small Heath (2)
5200WBA
4600Burslem Port Vale (2)
4525Bury
4475Woolwich Arsenal (2)
3350New Brighton Tower (2)
3325Grimsby (2)
3000Lincoln (2)
2875Walsall (2)
2775Luton (2)
2750Glossop (2)
2400Barnsley (2)
2375Burton Swifts (2)
2275Gainsborough Trinity (2)
1900Loughborough (2)
1500Blackpool (2)
900Darwen (2)

This series of features covers the final years of Ardwick, the birth of Manchester City and the Club’s first national success. Why not subscribe and read every feature? Here’s a link to the story of the 1898-99 season:

The 1890s: 1898-1899 Manchester’s First National Success

Here’s an 1800 article below on Manchester City in the final months of 1899:

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The 1890s: 1897-98 Attendances

The series of features on the 1890s continues today with a simple look at the average attendances of league clubs. I’m publishing the statistics here for season 1897-98 when Manchester City was a Second Division club. These figures are estimated based on newspaper reports of the period but are widely accepted as a good indication of support enjoyed at each club.

From 9 May 1898 the first Manchester football programme was a mock up based on Everton Liverpool programme

In the following table every team is in Division One unless (2) appears after their name. This indicates they were a Second Division club that season. Where two teams have the same average then these have been listed in alphabetic order.

1897-9 Average Attendances

AverageTeam
17550Everton
15325Aston Villa
12125Liverpool
11800Sheff Utd
11600Newcastle (2)
10925Sunderland
9475Sheff Wed
9050Derby
8600Notts County
8300Bolton
8050Blackburn Rovers
8000Manchester City (2)
7875Woolwich Arsenal (2)
7425Nottm Forest
6950WBA
6925Wolves
6825Stoke
6200Preston
6125Newton Heath (2)
5900Leicester Fosse (2)
5400Small Heath (2)
5200Bury
3825Burnley (2)
3525Grimsby (2)
3325Luton (2)
2950Lincoln (2)
2825Walsall (2)
2600Darwen (2)
2300Burton Swifts (2)
2250Gainsborough Trinity (2) (2)
2050Loughborough (2)
1825Blackpool (2)

This series of features covers the final years of Ardwick, the birth of Manchester City and the Club’s first national success. Why not subscribe and read every feature? Here’s a link to the story of the 1897-98 season:

The 1890s: 1897-1898  Buxton and Stockport

Here’s an 1800 article below on Manchester City in the final months of 1899:

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The 1890s: 1896-97 Attendances

The series of features on the 1890s continues today with a simple look at the average attendances of league clubs. I’m publishing the statistics here for season 1896-97 when Manchester City was a Second Division club. These figures are estimated based on newspaper reports of the period but are widely accepted as a good indication of support enjoyed at each club.

In the following table every team is in Division One unless (2) appears after their name. This indicates they were a Second Division club that season. Where two teams have the same average then these have been listed in alphabetic order.

1896-97 Average Attendances

AverageTeam
15525Everton
12925Aston Villa
11675Liverpool
8575Bolton
8300Derby
8200Sheff Utd
8075Newcastle (2)
8000Manchester City (2)
7300Sheff Wed
6775Blackburn
6725Preston
6425Wolves
6275Woolwich Arsenal (2)
6200Newton Heath (2)
6150Bury
6000Leicester Fosse (2)
5825Small Heath
5550WBA
5525Sunderland
5425Stoke
5300Leicester Fosse (2)
5175Burnley
5125Nottm Forest
4850Notts County (2)
4800Grimsby (2)
4500Small Heath (2)
3325Gainsborough Trinity (2)
2950Blackpool (2)
2875Walsall (2)
2650Burton Wanderers (2)
1500Darwen (2)
2325Burton Swifts (2)
2075Loughborough (2)
1675Lincoln (2)

This series of features covers the final years of Ardwick, the birth of Manchester City and the Club’s first national success. Why not subscribe and read every feature? Here’s a link to the story of the 1896-97 season:

The 1890s: 1896-1897 Gillespie Arrives  

Here’s an 1800 article below on Manchester City in the final months of 1899:

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The 1890s: 1895-96 Attendances

The series of features on the 1890s continues today with a simple look at the average attendances of league clubs. I’m publishing the statistics here for season 1895-96 when Manchester City was a Second Division club. These figures are estimated based on newspaper reports of the period but are widely accepted as a good indication of support enjoyed at each club.

In the following table every team is in Division One unless (2) appears after their name. This indicates they were a Second Division club that season. Where two teams have the same average then these have been listed in alphabetic order.

Notice how Second Division Manchester City had a better average attendance than all clubs apart from the First Division’s third placed club Everton and League champions Aston Villa.

1895-96 Average Attendances

AverageTeam
16000Everton
11875Aston Villa
10000Manchester City (2)
9725Bolton
8700Sheff Wednesday
8375Derby
7600Blackburn Rovers
7250Sheff Utd
7200Newcastle (2)
6975Woolwich Arsenal (2)
6825Preston
6600Stoke
6275Wolves
6100Sunderland
6000Bury
6000Leicester Fosse (2)
5825Small Heath
5600WBA
5575Liverpool (2)
5575Nottm Forest
5500Newton Heath (2)
5475Burnley
3500Grimsby (2)
3125Notts County (2)
2775Darwen (2)
2725Crewe (2)
2625Burton Swifts (2)
2475Burton Wanderers (2)
2400Lincoln (2)
2075Loughborough (2)
1775Rotherham Town (2)
1725Burslem Port Vale (2)

This series of features covers the final years of Ardwick, the birth of Manchester City and the Club’s first national success. Why not subscribe and read every feature? Here’s a link to the story of the 1895-96 season:

The 1890s: 1895-1896 Test Match Special

Here’s an 1800 article below on Manchester City in the final months of 1899:

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The 1890s: 1894-95 Attendances

The series of features on the 1890s continues today with a simple look at the average attendances of league clubs. I’m publishing the statistics here for season 1894-95 when Manchester City was established under that name. These figures are estimated based on newspaper reports of the period but are widely accepted as a good indication of support enjoyed at each club.

In the following table every team is in Division One unless (2) appears after their name. This indicates they were a Second Division club that season. Where two teams have the same average then these have been listed in alphabetic order.

1894-95 Average Attendances

AverageTeam
16225Everton
10925Liverpool
8900Aston Villa
8750Sheff Wednesday
8325Sunderland
8150Bolton
7900Blackburn Rovers
7675Sheff Utd
6400Woolwich Arsenal (2)
6200Burnley
6200Small Heath
6175WBA
6150Preston
6000Manchester City (2)
6000Newton Heath (2)
5525Nottm Forest
5500Leicester Fosse (2)
5300Wolves
4350Derby
4250Notts County (2)
3925Darwen (2)
3925Newcastle (2)
3900Bury (2)
3550Stoke
3325Grimsby (2)
2750Burton Swifts (2)
2525Lincoln (2)
2350Burton Wanderers (2)
2100Rotherham Town (2)
2075Walsall Town Swifts (2)
1825Burslem Port Vale (2)
1725Crewe (2)

This series of features covers the final years of Ardwick, the birth of Manchester City and the Club’s first national success. Why not subscribe and read every feature? Here’s a link to the story of the 1894-95 season:

The 1890s: 1894-1895 Parlby’s City

Here’s an 1800 article below on Manchester City in the final months of 1899:

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69,463 watch MCFC and Burnley in Division Two But Attendances Understated

On 10 May in 1947 a solitary goal from Alec Herd against Burnley was enough to give Manchester City promotion.  The attendance for this Second Division game was recorded by the media at the time as 67,672 but official records reviewed almost sixty years later showed that City actually recorded the attendance as 69,463.

Typically, the attendance figures City used to give the media for League games through to the 1960s tended to exclude season tickets. So the Blues’ management would give the figure of tickets or pay on the gate admission for the game but exclude season ticket holders. Back in 1946-47 City had around 1,800 season ticket holders and almost every League attendance back then is understated by that amount.

FA Cup games were the actual attendances as these were always sold game by game.

As this practice of excluding all season ticket holders continued for many, many decades at Maine Road attendance figures for League games are usually understated (they were often understated in the 1970s & 1980s as well but for different reasons and back then Peter Swales, Bernard Halford and the others involved in calculating attendances would deny any discrepancy despite many fans, fanzines and others challenging them often).

For comparison purposes it’s worth looking at the attendances of the Division One champions in 1947 to see how the Blues compared. This attendance against Burnley was almost 17,000 higher than Division One champions Liverpool’s highest crowd that season (52,512 v Wolves in December) and the Merseyside Reds nearest home game to City’s Burnley match was watched by 48,800 and that was Liverpool v Manchester United (May 3). Liverpool did average 45,732 that season, whereas City averaged 39,283 but they were a Second Division club.

The City-Burnley crowd was the Second Division’s record at the time and it was higher than every First Division crowd since the 1937-38 season (The Second Division record is now held by Tottenham v Southampton which had 70,302 in 1949-50).

Film of City v Burnley does exist but it’s in a most unlikely place. It was actually filmed as part of a Mancunian Films drama called Cup Tie Honeymoon. The company was run by a Manchester City fan who made this film, which starred Sandy Powell and Pat Phoenix (under her original name of Pilkington). A football game is crucial to the plot and scenes were filmed at Maine Road and interspersed with real action from the City-Burnley game to add credibility.

Myself and Will McTaggart have shown these scenes in our Boys In Blue film shows which have been staged at the Dancehouse and Cornerhouse in Manchester over the last decade. Maybe I’ll explain more about the film and those talks another day.

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