Let’s start with your childhood in Motherwell. How important was football to you as a boy?
We all played football and I was a Motherwell fan. I used to go all over Scotland watching them and as I got older my school used to go to Motherwell to train, so all of that was very important and made a big impression of course. But football in Scotland wasn’t as professional as in England, so I never thought about it as a career. I wanted to progress, but I didn’t think it would pay my wage. I ended up working as an engineer, co-incidentally with Ian St. John, and then I joined Kilmarnock and he signed for Motherwell. I’d also played for a village team and Joe Baker played for the same team.
At Kilmarnock you played in the Scottish Cup Final, that must have been a great experience?
Yes it was, and we also played in the Scottish League Cup Final, but each time we faced Rangers, so there was only ever going to be one winner unfortunately! I had a great time at Kilmarnock and I never really thought about leaving, and I suppose I never really thought about English football. It was never at the forefront of our minds, and then we went on a tour to the States and we played Burnley and we beat them. Now Burnley were one of the top English clubs back then and so this was a real test for us, but that day everything went well and I remember that playing Burnley was regarded by us as a major event. I’d never played against a strong English side, and so that made me think a little.
Not long after that City made their approach, was that the first time you’d heard of any interest in you from England?
Oh Aye. I never heard of any interest, but then I never thought in that way. When City got in touch with Kilmarnock, money was tight and I think they needed to sell someone, so it was good for them. Plus the maximum wage had just been abolished in English football and so when the offer came I was astounded with the wage they were offering. I was on £22 and City offered £38 I think. These figures will seem like peanuts today but believe me this was a major increase. Having said that I still thought long and hard about the move.
How did you find Manchester when you arrived in 1961?
I was fortunate that Jackie Plenderleith was at City because he looked after me and helped me settle, but it felt like an entirely different way of life. At first Jackie would take me and my wife to the pubs and clubs – I guess he wanted to show the different areas and help us get accustomed to the place – but I remember we felt a bit homesick and me and my wife started to talking and, even though she had worked in Glasgow, it felt alien to some extent and we stuck out a little. We knew that once we’d found a house and made it our home we wouldn’t be going out so much, so that became our priority and we eventually settled. David Shawcross and a few others also helped us settle.
On the pitch I couldn’t have had a better start. We beat Leicester 3-1 in my first game and I even scored against the great Gordon Banks. The fans loved that and I think they supported me from the beginning, although it was a little tough at first. Denis Law, who was a great hero to the fans, had been sold, and Ken Barnes, another hero, had also moved on, and their replacements were me and Peter Dobing. For a lot of fans – and I can totally understand this – we were not an improvement. Usually when you bring players in you try to improve the side, but when we joined I don’t think anyone believed the side had improved. Nevertheless the fans took to me and I think they recognised that I always gave 100% – City fans rightly demand that and they will often overlook a player’s weaknesses so long as he shows the same commitment to the Club as they do.
You were an everpresent in your first season, then in November 1962 you were awarded the captaincy. How did that feel?
I was very happy with that because I suppose my 100% commitment had helped, but I have to say it didn’t change a great deal. I shook hands with the opposition captain, tossed the coin, selected the end, but apart from that I continued to do what I’d always done. Every member of the side should act like a captain, so when you do get the captaincy it shouldn’t change too much. Obviously, I tried to lead by example and tried to help younger players or anyone struggling, but I’d expect every player to do that anyway.
The 1962-3 season ended in relegation, then City seemed to lack direction for the next couple of seasons, how did this period feel to you?
It was worrying of course, and I guess the game we all talk about is that match with Swindon when there were only 8,000 at Maine Road. That was a miserable day. My strongest recollection is that our groundsman Stan Gibson would put grass seed out at the start of spring to try and get the pitch going for the next season. Growing a pitch then was much more difficult. Anyway, Stand had sown seeds prior to the Swindon game, and during the match the atmosphere was very poor. Pigeons came on to the turf and sat eating the seed in the middle of the pitch. We had to play around them!
After the game there was a bit of a demonstration and one or two bricks were thrown – that was a major disturbance at the time because general disorder was not known – and little Albert Alexander went out to face the fans. It was a brave thing to do but Albert was an absolute Blue and felt the pain of the day himself. I think, after listening to Albert, the fans all just packed up and went home, but in the dressing room some of the players were saying they’d had enough. They wanted to leave… saw no future etc. I didn’t feel like that because, even in City’s darkest hour, I still couldn’t see anywhere better to go. It had been the worst day of my footballing life, but I loved Maine Road, loved the support, and I saw Manchester City as the best club in the world. Why move?
Talking of Albert Alexander, I must ask you about the story from 1968 of ‘Bobby Kennedy’s shooting’?
This is a pretty famous one. The story goes that while we were in the States on tour Bobby Kennedy, John F Kennedy’s brother, was shot. Joe Mercer heard the news from his hotel bed and immediately ‘phoned Albert’s room and said: “Have you heard, Bobby Kennedy’s been shot?” and Albert replied: “What’s he doing out at this time?” Some people have tried to make out that Albert was perhaps the type of director who didn’t have his finger on the pulse, but in truth Albert was such an obsessed City man that nothing but Manchester City really mattered. So as far as he was concerned on that night there was only one Bobby Kennedy worth thinking of. I know this has since appeared in a book – I won’t say which one – as the author’s own story but the truth is that its Joe and Albert’s story and that Albert was such a passionate Blue that even a member of the famous Kennedy family was not as important as a City man.
It wasn’t long before Joe Mercer came. How did you view the managerial changes and appointments during this period?
I started under Les McDowall who was very much an old school manager – shirt & tie, office type. You rarely saw him but when you did it was usual when he was unveiling one of his new tactical plans. Everyone knows about the Revie Plan, that was before my time, but McDowall was still creating plans during his final seasons. We had one where we played with 5 at the back and I had a number 7 shirt on. It’s difficult to explain but he basically mixed everything up. Anyway, we played a friendly against Burnley in Dublin (12/10/62) and tried it out. It worked like a dream and McDowall thought it was the Bees Knees. We came back to England, played it against Birmingham and we were awful. It was soon scrapped.
Actually McDowall would probably have excelled in today’s game because he was absolutely driven with tactical formations. After he left pipe smoking George Poyser took over. That wasn’t a dynamic period at all and I guess that’s when the rot really set in, although we still had some very good players – Alex Harley, Matt Gray and the rest. Poyser was sacked and for the last part of the 1964-65 season Freddie Tilson took over. In the close season I returned to Scotland for a few weeks as we always did and by the time I came back Joe and Malcolm were here.
How different was life under Mercer & Allison?
At first it was a bit strange. I’d ended the 1964-5 season playing at centre-half and I think they were led to believe that was my position. When the new season started I wasn’t included and they played Dave Bacuzzi at right back instead. They weren’t really happy with that and then Johnny Hart suggested putting me into the number 2 shirt. I stayed there for the rest of the season other than one game.
In terms of training, Malcolm allowed us to train with the ball. That was new – our training under the others had consisted of a few laps of the pitch and a run up Princess Parkway. Malcolm actually allowed us to practice ball skills. Ironically, after promotion he then got us running again – much harder than before of course!
Did you see much of Joe?
Joe was great of course, but we also knew that he’d been ill and so it was clear that he wasn’t going to be on the training pitch with us. Joe did an awful lot of work at the Club, but it was only really at the end of the week that he’d be talking with you at training. In fact what usually happened was that Joe would come down, take me for a walk around the pitch with his arm around me, and tell me that I wasn’t playing. That I’d not been selected. By the time we returned to the tunnel area, I’d be thanking him for not picking me!
By the time of the 1967-8 Championship you were more a squad member than first team regular, how did that feel?
The spirit and atmosphere at the Club was so great that I still had no interest in leaving. This was still the greatest club and I always reasoned that I’d be mad to leave it. Funnily enough the peak moment as far as the Club was concerned during my spell here has to be the Newcastle title decider in May 1968. If you look at the records, I’m the unused substitute for that day. I was desperate to get on, but I knew there was no way they’d disrupt the team. After we’d won the title I appeared on all the photos, lifting the trophy and the rest, but in truth I knew it wasn’t my success, although I had appeared in half a dozen of the games. I was still delighted though.
A couple of years earlier when Mercer first arrived another Scot Ralph Brand was his first signing, his career didn’t really succeed at City, do you have a view on why?
At that time Ralph had been a big star in Scotland and was an international player but, I guess, so much was expected of him that it may have put too much pressure. It’s difficult to say but he and Mike Summerbee arrived more or less at the same time and Mike succeeded from the start. It was a dream for me to play behind him because he made my life so easy. All I had to do was get the ball and give it to Mike. With Ralph there was a lot of competition for his place – Neil Young and Dave Connor really leaped above him once Malcolm started working with them. I was fortunate when I arrived that there wasn’t too much competition but, as time progressed, Tony Book was signed and opportunities became limited for me.
In March 1969 you moved to Grimsby as player-manager, had you decided it was time to move into management?
To some extent yes. I knew I was nearing the end of my playing career and decided to look at other options. Joe told me there might be a coaching role coming up and that did interest me, but then Grimsby made an approach – Matt Busby had suggested me to them – and the chance came to continue playing as well as move into management. I took the chance, but I now realise that I might have been better moving into a coaching role first to gain experience. At Grimsby there were 14 directors who each had to vote on every issue. You couldn’t get anything done and I was unable to move forward. The fans took to me and the last few months of the season everything clicked on the pitch and we had a terrific record, but the directors and I could never work together in the end and that was that. I was asked to do some coaching work at Bradford City, and then I became manager when Bryan Edwards left.
It was a good club to be at and the directors worked hard, so that all helped. We got to the quarter-finals of the FA Cup, losing to Southampton, so it was all good. We beat John Bond’s Norwich in a tie, and he went mad, saying that we shouldn’t be in the League etc. We got promoted, I was given a two year contract then three months later I was sacked!
Jim Iley then gave me a coaching job at Blackburn, but he was sacked shortly afterwards, and I knew it was only a matter of time before a new manager would bring his own staff in. When I was asked to leave I thought it was time to call it a day. I gave up on a football career and, through a friend in Manchester, I was asked to get involved with the clothing business and, at the age of 67 it’s something I still do. A great new career.
Finally, it’s fair to say football still plays a major part in your life. Your son’s coaching young goalkeepers at Bradford, and your daughter has represented Scotland at Women’s football. How does this feel?
It’s great to know that they are still finding enjoyment out of the game. I watch my grandchildren play, and of course I did go and support my daughter when she was playing for Scotland and Bradford. I think ladies football is great and I’ve seen some very talented players. It’s a great sport to play.
As well as that I try to come to watch City whenever I can. There’s still something about this club that is special.
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