On this day (30 October) in 1973 The second round League Cup tie between Manchester City and Walsall went to a second replay. City won the game 4-0 with a hat-trick for Francis Lee, but a pitiful crowd of 13,646 witnessed the match at Old Trafford. City fans didn’t mind playing a 2nd replay, but they did object to it being played at United’s ground.
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As we build up to the Manchester derby this weekend the usual questions of who represents Manchester best crops up, as does the ‘you’re not from Manchester’ argument. People also talk about Manchester history and so on, so I thought I’d write a few thoughts here to hopefully help anyone with their Manchester geography, history etc. Some fans will love this; some may hate it, but either way it’s all factual. Here goes….
On the question of history: The earliest recorded game for Manchester United (as Newton Heath) is in November 1880 (against Bolton Wanderer’s 2nd team) while the earliest recorded game for Manchester City (as St Mark’s West Gorton) was one week earlier than United’s game. Much is made of the 1878 formation date but that’s a bit of a red herring. There is no evidence of football participation by the Heathens until November 1880. From 1878 Newton Heath did play cricket and perform athletics. Similarly, St Mark’s are known to have played cricket from the 1860s but this does not mean the club should trace its history of football activity to 1867 (or any other date prior to 1880). I go into a lot more detail on all of this in The Emergence of Footballing Cultures: Manchester 1840-1919 but subscribers can also read the evidence & more via the following link:
Of course City was the first of the two clubs to take on the Manchester name, doing so in 1894. That year Newton Heath also tried to reform as Manchester but were prevented from doing so as there was already a Manchester FC in existence (the rugby club). Again you can read the evidence and facts in the Emergence of Footballing Cultures:
Also on the question of history… Manchester City were the first to find national success when they won the Second Division title in 1899 (also becoming the first Manchester side to earn promotion). City were also the first Manchester team to win a major trophy when they won the FA Cup in 1904. United were the first team to win the League with their first national success coming in 1908. United were the first to win a European trophy, winning the European Cup at Wembley in 1968, while City’s first European trophy (the European Cup Winners’ Cup) came in 1970 at Vienna. Both successes of course predate the first UEFA-tournament successes of Liverpool, Barcelona, Arsenal, Chelsea, Juventus and so many other perceived European giants (note: The Fairs Cup was not a UEFA tournament).
On representing the city of Manchester the point is often made, usually by City fans, that United ‘don’t come from Manchester’, so here’s a bit about geography: It is true that Old Trafford is not in the city of Manchester and that it’s in the borough of Trafford (not Salford as some say). United have been based there since 1910. Of course Trafford is within Greater Manchester, just as Bolton, Wigan, Rochdale, Stockport, Tameside and the city of Salford are. Prior to 1910 United played in Clayton and Newton Heath. At the time of their formation Newton Heath was not a part of Manchester. It was added to the city in 1890.
Similarly, West Gorton, where Manchester City was first founded as St Mark’s (West Gorton) was not part of the city of Manchester until 1890. Neither club was based in the city of Manchester at time of formation. City’s roots included various moves and name changes, with them settling in Ardwick in 1887. Ardwick had been incorporated into Manchester in 1838, meaning that from 1887 the Blues were based within the city of Manchester. The club moved to Maine Road in 1923 and their current home in 2003, both of which were within the city of Manchester by the time of the club’s move. Whichever way you look at it City have been based in the city of Manchester since 1887 while Newton Heath/United were based in the city of Manchester from 1890 to 1910. So for those who would like the maths that’s 135 years v 20 years.
In terms of first blood in the Manchester derby… Newton Heath beat Ardwick in the first derby in a first team competition that still counts today. That was the FA Cup in 1890-91 and you can read about that here:
Ultimately, all of these are merely bragging rights for particular views but I thought I’d post the facts because, all too often the facts get misreported and myths profligate.
Over the years there has been a lot of discussion on Denis Law and his backheeled goal for Manchester City v Manchester United at Old Trafford in April 1974. If you’re a Blue you tend to say it relegated United; if you’re a Red you tend to say ‘absolutely not! It made no difference.’ So, for this feature I decided to focus on the facts, emotion and mood of the era to paint an accurate picture of that day and the significance or not of that goal. Hopefully, Blues & Reds alike will gain a good understanding of it all. I include quotes from some of the interviews I’ve performed in the past. This article will be free to read until 27th September then it’s available to subscribers only. Here goes…
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If you’re interested in women’s football or in football in Trafford or Manchester then get your self a brew, settle down and enjoy this video of my talk before the big England-Northern Ireland match tonight. It’s part of my work on the #WEuro2022 Heritage Lottery funded project. Here goes:
This talk on the history of women’s football was staged at the National Football Museum on 1st July as part of my work on a consultancy basis with Trafford local archives. The talk lasts about 47 mins. Enjoy!
There will be a video of the panel discussion mentioned in this talk that will appear as a part 2 later. Maybe next week?
The Trafford Archive website I mention during my talk is available here:
Gary James considers a time when Burnley and City battled for the League
Today I’m taking a look back to 101 years ago today when, believe it or not, both City and Burnley were major rivals for the League title. People often assume today’s giants have always been the game’s powers but the evidence shows otherwise. Burnley, like City, have a history of success and, again like City, first appeared in the European Cup in the 1960s.
1920-21 seems – it is – an awful long time ago but it’s a crucial season in the development of both Burnley and City. It is one of those seasons that we really should remember for a variety of reasons, not least because it speeded up City’s desire to move stadium because of the huge crowds that wanted to see the Blues play.
Here for subscribers is a 1600 word piece on an extraordinary time in 1920-21:
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Together with Fiona Skillen, Helena Byrne and John Carrier I have co-authored an article on women’s football and the impact of the 1921 #FABan. The reason we wrote this academic article was to highlight that too often we assume that what happened in England is what happened across Great Britain and Ireland. It isn’t and in this piece you can read an overview of each nation and what occurred. The article is open access/free to read here:
I hope you enjoy that. We do see this article as a means of highlighting the differences and we see this as a call for more detailed research, properly triangulated, to ensure we uncover the true development of women’s football across England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Ireland. No book has yet been published that comes anywhere close to telling the development of women’s football across each of these nations with some making assumptions that are simply not valid across each nation. Our article cannot cover everything but I hope it gives a taster for the topic.
Special thanks to Glasgow Caledonian University for making this open access. It really is appreciated.
It is worth reading the piece (well, it’s free so you may as well have a look!) to see what happened in your part of the UK and Ireland. For those with a Greater Manchester interest you’ll see mention of Manchester United, Bolton Wanderers, Manchester Corinthians and Manchester Ladies. Some interesting stuff on crowds. Also, if you’re a fan of Stoke City, Manchester City, Manchester United, Oldham Athletic or Everton you can see what happened to their former player Jimmy Broad when he tried to train a women’s football team in the 1950s!
I have written other academic articles on women’s football but these tend to be behind a publisher’s paywall. If you have access via a library or university here’s one that may be of interest:
Back in November 1920 Manchester City’s main stand at Hyde Road was destroyed by fire. City asked United if they could move to Old Trafford but their terms were prohibitive according to the media of the day. This report was typical of the reaction. You can read the full story in Manchester A Football History which subscribers to GJFootballArchive.com get as part of their subscription. For more details see: https://gjfootballarchive.com/2021/01/09/manchester-a-football-history-part-one/
On Monday I asked if you could name this ground. I said: ‘I know it’s a tough one BUT… there’s a reason I’ve chosen this week to post this image plus eagle-eyed visitors to this site may notice that I have actually used part of this image before in connection with another story. So where is it?’ The answer is…
Manchester City’s old Hyde Road ground. So did you work out why I’ve posted the image this week and what the previous story I’d used part of this image for was in connection with? Well this equivalent week in 1920 saw the stand featured being built. This is the only known surviving photo of Hyde Road’s temporary Main Stand built in the week following the Hyde Road fire.
The Main Stand was destroyed on the night of the November 6 by fire and, after attempts to move to United’s Old Trafford failed as a result of United demanding an exorbitant rent. For the full story of this see this chapter of Manchester A Football History (available with the rest of the book as a download for subscribers):
City didn’t think the rent was fair (neither did the media – again see that chapter of Manchester A Football History) and so they decided to soldier on at Hyde Road. A new stand – the one seen from the back here – was constructed using wood.
So, what about the previous story part of the image was used for? That was a piece about Billy Meredith returning to City in July 1921. Meredith is the player on the far right and this photo was taken to show him back at Manchester City.
Watch out for another Historic Name That Ground on Monday.
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Here’s one (above) I’ve spotted from the 1930s at Old Trafford. Can you work out where the ball should be? The winner wasn’t the person who accurately identified where the ball was, instead it was the person who accurately identified where football experts, employed by the newspaper or pools company, said the ball would be.
So where do you think the ball was? Is it in the goal; has it been saved and at the feet of a striker; could it have been curled around the post; maybe it’s flying high over that Trafford Park chimney?
See below for the answer…
Sadly, I don’t know which game this was (and they never said at the time) but it is Old Trafford and it appeared in the Athletic News in January 1931.
The experts identified that the ball would be here:
I can’t make out if that’s in the back of the net (possible – these were bad days for United and the club was relegated this season) or if it’s been curled around the post.
Tonight Manchester City take on Paris Saint Germain in the 2nd leg of the Champions League semi-final. The Blues won the first leg 2-1 and are hopeful of reaching their first Champions League final. It would not of course be their first two-legged semi-final win in Europe – that came way back in 1970.
You can read about that 1970 ECWC semi-final here:
Manchester United were the first of the region’s sides to compete in European competition and they reached a European Cup semi-final in 1956-57. They’d played their earlier rounds at Maine Road, where they’d attracted significant attendances (including their current record home European crowd) but they moved the semi-final to Old Trafford. Here for subscribers is the story of that campaign:
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Gary James' Football Archive 