2023, 1999 & 1975 Comparisons – Any Point?

Driving back from Wembley last Saturday both Talksport and BBC Radio 5 Live had phone-in shows where the question kept being brought up about comparing Manchester United’s treble in 1999 with the possibility of City managing the same achievement this year. Obviously, a football game can go any direction and no success is guaranteed ever, so I am absolutely not going to talk as if something has been achieved when it hasn’t. If City do manage this incredible feat then the comparisons are likely to be made again BUT how sensible is this?

I am against making these comparisons because I think they’re futile. A bit like when I asked former City player Johnny Williamson, who had played with both Frank Swift and Bert Trautmann, which was best. He said: ‘It doesn’t matter. You pick one and I’ll pick the other because the two of them were head and shoulders above the rest!’

United’s treble in 1999 was absolutely incredible and a major achievement. If City manage the same this weekend then that will also be incredible and a major achievement. Which is best doesn’t matter and even if it did can we really do an accurate comparison? 24 years is a long time in football and the game changes so much in that time.

Much has been made about where City were in 1999 (winning promotion from ‘new’ Division Two) when United won their treble. People have said: ‘How can a team go from promotion challengers to potential treble winners in 24 years?’ Well, guess where United were 24 years before their treble…. they were promotion challengers in ‘old’ Division Two!

Martin Buchan and Alex Stepney celebrating United’s promotion in 1975 at Old Trafford

In the years that followed United’s promotion in 1975 they had a few peaks and troughs as City have. It wasn’t until 1993 (18 years after promotion) that they won the League for the first time since the 1960s but they had won the FA Cup 2 years after promotion. It took City only 13 years after their 1999 promotion to win the League but the FA Cup came in 2011 (12 years after the 1999 promotion). Both clubs spent a lot of money to find those first successes with City receiving Abu Dhabi investment and United borrowing heavily (the increasing level of debt was frequently raised by shareholders back then who questioned whether the club could sustain making purchases like they had to create the most expensive British team ever up to that point) to fund Ferguson’s first successful team.

Comparisons would need to look into every aspect of both clubs – for example Pep’s team are the only team to win a domestic treble as well, so does that elevate their current achievements? Similarly, Ferguson led United to a period of sustained success and dominance that no one else has matched so far. Comparisons are really fairly pointless.

To United fans their treble will always be the best and to City fans, if the club is lucky enough to achieve the same, that will be the best. For most neutrals it will be ‘so what?’, although they’ll downplay any success by a rival. I remember in 1999 someone phoning in a BBC radio show after United had won the Champions League for the second time. The caller was a Nottingham Forest fan who had got fed up with all the praise being heaped on United and, like many United fans today about City, he felt his club was more worthy. He said something like: ‘You keep going on about this United team but what have they done? They’ve just matched what Forest and Brian Clough achieved years ago. We’ve had two European Cups for years and our team was better and cheaper than this lot!’

It’s all a game to fill programmes and articles. It’s not needed. If you think about it 24 years is an extremely long time. If both Manchester clubs can go from promotion chasing teams to European finals in those years then that’s some journey. You have to be well into your 30s to stand a chance of being able to compare 1999 and 2023 and for anyone under that age it’s ancient history and another ‘so what?’.

When United won the treble in 1999 I was an adult with two kids and was just in my 30s. I’d written four major books on Manchester football (including the Pride of Manchester on Manchester derby matches) by this time and had researched the history of both clubs in-depth, so I did get interviewed a lot by TV and radio. I was perceived as an expert, but if you’d have asked me to compare United’s 1975 promotion team with City’s 1999 promotion team I would’ve had to admit I was too young to appreciate what United’s 1975 achievement was like. I’d be able to quote journalists and interviewees but I couldn’t give an honest view which group of players was better. It’s the same now, yet we’ve a whole range of people offering views who are either invested in one club or who are too young to be able to talk with knowledge about it. In any case football in 2023 is somewhat different to football in 1999 – just as that was so different from 1975 and that so different from 1951.

Paul Dickov at Wembley 1999

Maybe we should have filled phone-ins after City had won the double on Saturday with questions like: ‘How does City’s League and Cup double compare with past doubles? Was this City team better than Preston in 1889?’ It’s ludicrous to even try.

Maine Road 100 – Day 21

It’s day 21 of my posts counting down to the centenary of Maine Road’s opening game and today’s image is a reminder of a European night that was hugely significant. It was the most important European game played by Manchester City at Maine Road.

The game, played on 15 April 1970, saw German side Schalke 04 defeated 5-1 in the ECWC semi-final second leg at Maine Road by City. Subscribers can read the story of that game (and watch video highlights) here:

The image shows Francis Lee in action during that game with the Main Stand and Platt Lane corner in the background. This game led to City playing in their first European final and it seems appropriate to remember that night this week. Joe Mercer’s team went on to win the ECWC (at the time the 2nd most important UEFA club competition).

As well as that image here’s another from the night. This was the celebratory post match pitch invasion. I’d love to hear from any Blues who were there that night. Please use the contact page or leave a comment below. Thanks.

For those unfamiliar with Maine Road this photo may help locate the scene. Number 1 is the Main Stand. Number 4 is the Platt Lane Corner. The pitch invasion image shows one of the corner tunnels but I can’t make out whether it’s the one that used to be position near number 9 or the one shown below at number 6.

Maine Road aerial 1971 from Farewell To Maine Road

If you’d like to read more on the history of Maine Road, take a look at Farewell To Maine Road, which can be downloaded from this page:

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Manchester Corinthians

Last night I did a talk at a branch of the Women’s Institute on the incredible story of the women’s team, the Manchester Corinthians, and our quest to have a plaque erected to them. There were lots of great questions and it was a really nice event. Thanks to all those involved.

Some of the trophies won by the Manchester Corinthians

The story of the Corinthians is an inspiring one and I was delighted to explain the history of the club and why I am so determined to have tributes to them erected. I also explained about the work the Friends of Fog Lane Park are doing too to recognise the women.

There are stories on this website about the Corinthians (follow the links below) but I am delighted to say that last year we received funding from a major source to erect a plaque and, thanks to the donations of many others (including the Dick, Kerr Ladies Foundation), there will be other tributes. The Friends of Fog Lane Park are playing a key role in identifying other ways of recognising the Corinthians.

I’ve been wanting to explain about the support for some time but I am still unable to publicly say who the major funder is – that will come soon – but if all goes as planned we should be able to have an event late this summer to recognise the women and unveil the plaque. Watch this space for details!

If you or a relative played for the Manchester Corinthians or Manchester Nomads (sister club) then please get in touch with me. I’m keen to track down as many women involved as possible so that they can all share in the celebration. In addition, in 2024 I will be publishing the Authorised History of the Corinthians. It would be great to include as many women in that as possible. More on the book here:

It is still possible to donate to the Just Giving page (follow Manchester Corinthians Plaque link below) and all funds raised will be used to develop further tributes to the Corinthians at Fog Lane Park.

Also, if you are interested in a talk on the history of this pioneering club and the women involved then please get in touch. I’d be happy to speak at other Women’s Institute groups, Probus, Rotary, Rotaract, history groups and others. It’s always a good night (and last night there was some nice tea and cake too!).

The Span of Success 2023

Ahead of West Ham’s European final tomorrow night (7 June) I thought I’d post the latest update to the table showing the span of success – i.e. the number of years between a club’s first major success (FA Cup, League, League Cup, European trophy) and their most recent. If West Ham win tomorrow they will leap ahead of Leicester City.

This season has seen City overtake Blackburn Rovers and they are now second to Liverpool.

Okay, the span of success does not show how many trophies each club has won or how frequently that club has experienced great eras of success, but it does demonstrate how wrong those people are who believe certain clubs were unsuccessful until recent years, or those who think certain clubs have always been giants. The column on first major success helps to show when some clubs first became trophy-winning significant (often after transformational investment).

While you’re here… why not take a look at the free to read daily Maine Road features counting down to the old stadium’s 100th anniversary of its first game? Here are a sample couple of features (follow the Maine Road tag or search for more):

Maine Road 100 – Day 20

It’s day 20 of my posts counting down to the centenary of Maine Road’s opening game and today’s feature is on the original Maine Road dug outs. Nowadays the playing staff areas take up considerable space wither side of the tunnel at most stadia but for most of Maine Road’s existence there were two concrete bunkers dug out for the manager, physio and maybe one other to sit on. When substitutes were allowed in the 1960s then the sub would also sit there. Inevitably they were cramped and gave an extremely poor view of the game. Basically, the manager would be looking out at leg level.

The main image shows that the City dug out (on the right) had been extended by the time this image was taken in the 1970s. The away dug out (left of the tunnel) is the original size.

City’s dugouts – which actually were dug out – were built at some point after the main construction of the stadium but I’m not exactly certain when. This image from 1926 shows that small benches were originally positioned/built either side of the tunnel.

1926 City v Fulham, Maine Road. Jimmy McMullan with the ball.

The concrete dugout lasted into the 1970s when more modern bus shelter style ‘dugouts’ (but not ‘dug out’) were erected. This image shows the home bus shelter style dugout in 1983 with manager John Benson. The man with the perm hidden mostly by John Benson is comedian Eddie Large. Physio Roy Bailey is the man closest to the camera.

Mirrorpix photo

Even then the originals remained for some time before being demolished when parts of the white wall were rebuilt. I think they’d been fairly redundant for years though. I have photos of them being used at times during the 1960s and 1970s but this image from the 1950s shows they were empty on many matchdays.

1971 ECWC v Chelsea. Tony Book and mascot Paul Todd. Photo by Alan Jubb

The above image is of the same dugouts in 1971. I tend to think that by this time they were only used if it was a wet day as they provided a little bit of shelter. Notice the bar scarfs in the crowd – blue & white; red & black and one that’s blue & white with a thinner maroon bar too.

For decades, the manager’s dugouts weren’t the only ‘dugouts’ at the ground as there were also similar arrangements for the police and/or St John Ambulance personnel in Maine Road’s corners. These seemed to be in use into the 1960s as this image shows. Look carefully to the right of the player on the right and you can see two police or St John’s Ambulance staff in a corner dug out near the Kippax. This image is from the early 1960s.

These also disappeared when parts of the white wall were rebuilt and gates added in the corners.

For those unfamiliar with Maine Road this photo may help locate the player dugouts. You can’t really see them but one was positioned in the white wall in front of number 1 and one to the left as we look of the central tunnel next to 1.

Maine Road aerial 1971 from Farewell To Maine Road

If you’d like to read more on the history of Maine Road, take a look at Farewell To Maine Road, which can be downloaded from this page:

If you enjoy all the free material on my website and would like to support my research and keep this website going (but don’t want to subscribe) then why not make a one-time donation (or buy me a coffee). All support for my research is valued and welcome. It allows me to keep some free material available for all. Thanks.

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The 2000s: This Week 2007-08

Continuing the weekly series on Manchester City’s seasons from 1999-2000 through to 2008-09. Each week I’ll be publishing here the story of a different season of that remarkable ten-year period. Today we have a 6,700 word article on the 2007-08 season (below). As always, this includes material from exclusive interviews I have performed with various figures associated with the club over the years. The article, like everything else on this site is under copyright and cannot be posted elsewhere without my express permission.

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The 2023 FA Cup Final – All Manchester

Well, the first all-Manchester FA Cup final has been and gone but what a day? Before any major fixture you hope that it will live up to the hype and, as a historian, I always hope that something different than normal will occur, or a record will be broken.

I’m always keen on pointing out that history is made every day and that historians have to constantly re-evaluate what stories they are telling if they want to represent and record society as it changes. I am totally against those that think history is something that doesn’t move with the times and I always try to think about those who may be experiencing something for the first time. City’s 2023 FA Cup success could easily be the earliest footballing memory for some and what a memory it will be!

As I entered the stadium the entry gate and stairway I used had the usual years and landmark moments decorating its walls and I did notice the comment about the fastest goal in a FA Cup final (it claimed Di Matteo’s goal after 43 seconds was still the record, so that needed updating even before the game!). I didn’t expect any goal to occur in the first few minutes of the game, never mind the first few seconds. More on that in a moment.

The journey to Wembley was more difficult than normal, due to the rail strike and the fact so many were going down the same routes. The route I took, mostly M1, seemed busier than normal (normal – it’s ‘normal’ going to Wembley now!) but it was mostly City fans I saw. I’m sure others experienced something else but for me there were the occasional United vehicles. Most of the cars and coaches that I saw with colours showing (scarves out the window is an absolute must on days like these for many of us!) were blue not red. That reminded me a lot of the 2011 FA Cup semi final when every City car we saw was full of happy, laughing, smiling City fans pre-match but United fans seemed more serious or concerned with what the day would bring. The similarities between the two days were striking.

Traffic jams meant the journey was longer than anticipated but once we parked up in our usual spot (‘usual’, ‘normal’ – I hope that never changes) we were ready. A quick wander around was followed by buying the programme. I had two articles in this year’s FA Cup final programme – one on City & United’s first FA Cup successes in 1904 and 1909 and another was a peaks and troughs sort of timeline. Both pieces were neutral and I was delighted to be asked to contribute to the programme once more.

Inside the stadium the tickets we had bought were up at the back of level 5 block 546. Coincidentally just before kick off the people on the row behind us arrived and one was Ian Brightwell, one of the players when City defeated United in the only previous All-Manchester FA final (that was the 1986 FA Youth Cup).

As for the game. Well, what an opener! We’d not had chance to settle really when Gundogan netted that wonderful strike. I remember looking straight up to the video screen and seeing the clock change from 12 to 13 seconds. Incredible.

As Brightwell was behind me I couldn’t resist turning to him and saying ‘I see Gundogan “just wellied it!” like you did in 1990.’ For those that don’t remember or are too young Brightwell did a similar goal from several yards out in an Old Trafford derby in 1990. Afterwards while being interviewed he was asked about the goal but the interview kept being interrupted and so he had to answer the question multiple times. On the last occasion he simply answered: ‘I just wellied it!’ and the phrase entered City folklore.

There was the penalty given to United of course – I won’t go into the rights and wrongs of that but i do want to mention VAR. I find it absolutely ridiculous that those of us who have spent considerable time and effort in getting to Wembley and attending the final are the ones who knew least about what was going on. We had nothing on the screen to tell us a check was in progress; we had no opportunity to see the video clips and we only knew it was being reviewed when the ref stopped the game (after some time too! What if a player had been injured or another goal had been scored in the meantime?) and went over to the monitor.

The moment he headed towards the monitor we knew something was going to be given because I can’t think of a time when a ref has stuck to his guns in England (I’m sure it’s happened but I don’t remember).

The penalty changed the mood for a while, but City fans were in good voice when the second half started and it seemed inevitable then that the Blues would score again. I don’t think any of us expected Gundogan to be the man again but over these last few months he’s clearly led by example. He deserved the man of the final award and hopefully he’ll get further honours this season.

So the game ended 2-1 and City have achieved a coveted double again (last time was the only time an English club had won a domestic treble!). Brilliant work City and the season isn’t over yet!

It was wonderful to see the players celebrate. Those celebrations on the pitch demonstrated how much this all meant to them. People often try to suggest a domestic cup isn’t anything special but it absolutely is. How many of us have ever won a FA Cup? These players were outstanding and deserve tremendous praise, as does the manager of course.

People talk about money but City are not the biggest spenders either in actual outflow terms or in net spend terms. Like Alex Ferguson and United in the late 1980s/early 1990s, City have spent money on players to find success. Also, like United at that time trophy success brings additional income, gate receipts, prize money, sponsorship etc. which in turn can be used to invest in youth development and finding ways to sustain success. There’s no point going on about this but I do wish that people looked at the history of football and focused on fact rather than the fiction that often gets spouted.

On the way home there was a lot of talk on the radio about possible trebles and it was interesting that almost every phone-in I could find was trying to compare United’s 1999 treble with the possibility of City winning one this season. Who knows how Saturday will go and I won’t get drawn into that but I do want to say that United winning the treble was an incredible achievement. If City manage to do the same this year then that will also be an incredible achievement. So much has changed in 24 years that comparisons are ridiculous.

Actually, I did hear on the radio one presenter go on about how City have spent because ‘in 1999 when United were winning their treble they were getting promoted’ (paraphrased but basically that comment). Had I been able to call in I might have done because 24 years ago that is true but it is also true that 24 years before 1999 United were also getting promoted. It’s a similarity people have overlooked, but if somehow it is wrong for City to go from struggling team to potential treble winners in 24 years then surely it would also be wrong for United to do the same? Ah well! Facts not fiction.

When City got back to Manchester they were greeted by Elton John who, it has been said, waited to meet and congratulate them. The videos and photos are wonderful to watch. Noel Gallagher may have to watch out – usually he’s the one singing along with Pep and the players after a major trophy success.

While you are here why not have a look at the 100 day countdown I’m doing to mark the centenary of Maine Road’s first game? You can do a search on Maine Road or start by looking at this one:

Maine Road 100 – Day 19

Welcome to Maine Road… It’s day 19 of my posts counting down to the centenary of Maine Road’s opening game. A photograph can bring back so many memories. Today’s is of a simple sign but it welcomed many to Manchester City’s ground for decades.

This was replaced by another version of the sign, which was then removed in 1994 when the Kippax Stand was demolished, but for much of the 1970s & 1980s this original sign was a popular part of Maine Road for many fans.

Kippax Stand c.1980

It sat proudly on a metal floodlight gantry on the roof of the Kippax in front of the original central lighting. In later years it was swamped by advertising and extensive roof lighting, once the corner pylons had gone.

Anyone running out from the players’ tunnel would see it straight in front of them. Like the This Is Anfield sign at Liverpool this was a recognisable feature proudly saying Manchester City and Welcome to Maine Road.

For those unfamiliar with Maine Road this photo may help locate where the sign was. You can see the Kippax roof central lighting tower above number 7. The sign was attached to that, opposite the players’ tunnel (number 1).

Maine Road aerial 1971 from Farewell To Maine Road

If you’d like to read more on the history of Maine Road, take a look at Farewell To Maine Road, which can be downloaded from this page:

If you enjoy all the free material on my website and would like to support my research and keep this website going (but don’t want to subscribe) then why not make a one-time donation (or buy me a coffee). All support for my research is valued and welcome. It allows me to keep some free material available for all. Thanks.

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Maine Road 100 – Day 18

The 1970s Maine Road treatment room… It’s day 18 of my posts counting down to the centenary of Maine Road’s opening game. A photograph can say so much about the era.

This photo shows the treatment room at Maine Road with physio Roy Bailey working on Tommy Booth’s leg. On the bed to the left is Gary Owen and the other players are Dave Watson (on bed to the right either hiding his face or making a secret gesture with his fingers!), Kenny Clements and Tony Henry (with magazine).

What else can we spot? The telephone on the wall (and one on the trolley) and the ‘modern’ equipment. The closed off window, which shows that this room backed on to the main external frontage of the stadium. Years earlier that window would have been glazed with small glass blocks like the others were. There’s the fake wood panelling popular in the 70s – maybe Peter Swales got a job lot from somewhere and had the boardroom, offices and other spaces fitted out in it – the tiled ceiling and the wall heater. All very 1970s.

I’m pretty certain the equivalent facilities at the Etihad & CFA are somewhat more extensive than this but, at the time, City did claim they were ahead of most rivals in this area. Obviously, Roy Bailey would be able to talk more about support (or lack of it) from above, while the players could also talk about how they were treated overall.

For those unfamiliar with Maine Road this photo may help locate where the photo was taken from. It was taken in a room inside the Main Stand, in the lower level, somewhere behind and to the left of number 1.

Maine Road aerial 1971 from Farewell To Maine Road

If you’d like to read more on the history of Maine Road, take a look at Farewell To Maine Road, which can be downloaded from this page:

If you enjoy all the free material on my website and would like to support my research and keep this website going (but don’t want to subscribe) then why not make a one-time donation (or buy me a coffee). All support for my research is valued and welcome. It allows me to keep some free material available for all. Thanks.

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Farewell To Maine Road – Part Four

Continuing from last week, subscribers to my website are able to download a PDF of the original Farewell To Maine Road book (which retailed at £25) in sections posted each week for the next few weeks. Today, we’ve got the fourth section. Enjoy!

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As well as Farewell To Maine Road annual subscribers get access to everything posted since the site was created in December 2020 (that’s 100s of articles, videos, history talks and PDFs of two other books: Manchester A Football History and my first book From Maine Men To Banana Citizens).

Next week I’ll be posting the fifth section of this 320 page, fully illustrated & detailed book for subscribers to enjoy.

You can see the contents pages to see what’s included in this book, published in 2003, and read the Introduction here:

The book has been out of print since 2004 with every copy sold within about six months of publication. Since then I’ve been keen to bring it up to date with stories about the site and the Etihad but that’s not been possible as no publisher has been prepared to invest in the way that Polar Publishing did to ensure it was the right quality.

Copies occasionally appear in second hand book shops or at online retailers but these often sell for ridiculous sums of money. The last time I checked there was one for about £100 here:

When it was published in 2003 apparently, I commented (though I can’t remember saying this, mind you it was 20 years ago): ‘On 320 beautifully illustrated A4 size pages this book tells the story of Maine Road from conception, right through to its final days as a sporting venue. With excellent photographs – including rare illustrations of the stadium during construction never previously published and images from every era – this has been a very interesting book to research, write and compile. I’ve also tried to ensure the views of ordinary fans are included, and some of the most powerful Maine Road moments are captured by the fans who saw them happen.’

In a review, Hugh Ryden wrote in King of the Kippax: ‘The architecture, the moving memories, the reproduction of rare photos and memorabilia and its extensive quotations, make FTMR a must.’

Another King of the Kippax regular Steve Worthington wrote: ‘Following on in the winning formula of his epic “Manchester The Greatest City”, the highly acclaimed author and Manchester City Football Club Historian Gary James has rolled up his sleeves once more and has produced yet another fabulous football book for all to treasure and enjoy. “Farewell to Maine Road” is not only a must for all Manchester City supporters, it is also an essential for all football fans who possess a genuine interest and passion for the history of our great British past time. It catalogues the birth, evolution and ultimate decline of what was once England’s premier and revolutionary provincial football stadium; Maine Road, Moss Side, Manchester M14. Soon to be demolished into oblivion, Maine Road is vividly remembered in all its former glory in this classic portal to the past. Beautifully written with the knowledge and passion you would expect from a lifelong Moss Side Pilgrim, the book provides a definitive literate and graphic illustration of Maine Road’s long and varied history. It contains a rich tapestry of previously unpublished photographs, one of which, a unique atmospheric shot of the famous ‘Ballet on Ice’ (a famous Manchester City V Spurs clash in the late sixties), is arguably worth the cost of the book on it’s own. Having consumed and digested every morsel of information contained within, it is difficult for me to imagine how much painstaking work and dedication it must take to produce and compile a book of such quality. Whilst they continue to produce triumphs such as this, the marriage of Gary James and Polar Publishing is truly one made in a Sky Blue Heaven. This 320-page masterpiece has pushed the boundaries of football publications to a new and higher level and has already prompted tears of nostalgia in my eyes. But don’t take my word for it, sign up a copy and see for yourself, you’ll not be disappointed.’

The publicity blurb said: ‘The only officially approved history of Maine Road is the perfect book for any supporter of City; Maine Road attendee; or general football enthusiast. 

The book details the history of the stadium focussing on its development, and on the key games and events which have made Maine Road such a famous and important venue. Using first hand accounts, as told by supporters, players, administrators, and the media this book has been written and designed to the same high quality used in the highly acclaimed Manchester: The Greatest City. With special features on all the big City matches, international games, FA Cup semi-finals, League Cup finals, Rugby finals, concerts, religious meetings, and even on United’s use of the stadium during the forties and for European Cup games in the fifties. In addition both City’s former ground Hyde Road and future venue the City of Manchester Stadium have been covered to provide the complete history of City’s three homes. 

‘As with earlier works by Gary James & Polar Publishing this book is destined to be regarded as the definitive history of Maine Road & Manchester City’s other grounds.’

My publisher, Julian Baskcomb, commented: ‘Gary James is the appropriate man to write this work after a lifetime’s research on the club and its stadium. As a boy Gary was a regular in the Platt Lane Stand; then at the age of 16 he bought his own season ticket for the Kippax Stand and has been a season ticket holder ever since. He is also a respected journalist with articles for a wide range of publications including The Times and has recently managed the development of Manchester City’s new museum.’