You’ll Be Back: MCFC and WHU 1987

As Manchester City visit West Ham today (31st August 2024) in the Premier League I thought I’d post a small feature remembering a relegation game in 1987 that entered folklore as the You’ll Be Back game. What was it all about? Here goes…

City and West Ham fans have developed a special relationship over the years. There has been a mutual recognition of the journey our clubs have been on.

The biggest demonstration of the special relationship between the fans of the two clubs came in May 1987. City were relegated after a 2-0 defeat at West Ham.  At the end of the game City supporters and West Ham fans climbed over the fences and onto the pitch. Some thought that the two sets of supporters were about to confront each other, but the fans knew differently. The Hammers began chanting “You’ll be back” and both groups swapped scarves and souvenirs on the pitch. It was the kind of moment that should have been widely reported in the media but at the time focus tended to be on hooliganism and confrontation rather than the positives of football support. City had been relegated, but their supporters did not seek revenge.  The West Ham fans could have ridiculed, but they didn’t.  If only those condemning football fans at the time could have seen the two sets of loyal supporters genuinely appreciating and understanding each other.

The relationship between the fans of the two clubs is not something that is widely discussed or promoted but it is something that has endured. City fans have never forgotten the ‘You’ll be back’ game and in recent years, as others have unfairly mocked both sets of fans, the supporters of both the Blues and the Hammers seem to understand and respect each other. Inevitably, there will always be banter during a game but outside of the match the mutual recognition and respect always seems to win through.

To many West Ham are the City of the South – a proud football club with a great history and heritage, combined with a loyal and passionate fanbase.

I reckon that City and West Ham fans have a shared understanding of football history, status and achievements with supporters aware of their club’s traditions, rivalries and shared history. The two clubs’ roots are very much based around hardworking working class areas of their cities with the supporters of both the Hammers and the Blues coming traditionally from the working classes. In recent years an analysis of the original shareholders at the majority of Football League clubs identified that by 1900 City’s shareholders came mostly from the working class – a larger percentage than at any club other than West Ham who had a slightly higher percentage. This demonstrates that those who owned both City and West Ham were representative of the fans on the terraces and that these clubs were similarly organised and run. As a result of this both clubs were representative of their communities in ways in which their nearest local rivals were not at the time.

Both clubs have enjoyed stylish, attractive football over the years with a belief that the game should be an entertainment. The roots of this go back decades at both clubs with West Ham’s Ted Fenton and Ron Greenwood influencing men such as Malcolm Allison and John Bond who managed the Blues. 

Recently, City fans were delighted to see Manuel Pellegrini and Pablo Zabaleta become Hammers following a line that includes other popular Blues such as Ian Bishop and Trevor Morley.

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While you’re here why not check out the frank audio interview with former WHU player and MCFC boss John Bond? Taster clip here:

Liverpool 1 MCFC 3 – John Bond’s Views on Liverpool’s Reaction

The Noel Gallagher Interview

It seems an appropriate time to re-release this… Back on Thursday May 20 2021 I interviewed Noel Gallagher about his support of Manchester City, Pep, Europe and more. It was great for two Mancs of a similar age to get together to chat about City. I really enjoyed it.

Here’s part one:

Part two:


Part three:

Part four:
https://gjfootballarchive.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/noel-gallagher-part-4-1.mp3

Part five:


Thanks to Noel and the staff at his studios & office for making this happen.

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Four-in-a-Row: An Incredible Achievement

I’ve left it a few days to let it all sink in but ‘wow!’ What an achievement for Manchester City! Never in the near 140 years of League football has any club achieved such a remarkable feat of four successive titles. This record, like the domestic treble, will last for an eternity with future generations aware of how brilliant these players and this manager was.

So for today’s piece I thought I’d look back at the successive titles record and see how that has developed. This demonstrates what a truly remarkable achievement this has been, but it also adds to the debate about whether teams have dominated particular eras or not. We’re often told that City’s era of dominance is new and no team has ever done this before – well no team has ever won 4 consecutive titles that’s for certain – but we’re also told that other clubs, Liverpool, Arsenal and United for example, have had greater periods of dominance (though that’s acceptable and City’s is not – that’s odd in itself!). It seems your view depends on which team you support. For neutrals and those prepared to explore the facts, the following can help with all of this assessment.

Record 2 in a row progression

Preston won the first two League titles in 1888-89 and 1889-90 (and were runners up in the three seasons that followed).

Sunderland equalled the record in 1891-92 and 1892-93 (and were runners up in 1893-94 6 points behind Villa) before winning it again in 1894-95

Aston Villa matched the 2-in-a-row twice in 1895-96 & 1896-97 and 1898-99 & 1899-1900. They actually won 5 out of 7.

Wednesday were next winning 2-in-a-row 1902-03 & 1903-04 (pipping FA Cup winners City to the title).

Liverpool were next with successes in 1921-22 & 1922-23

After Liverpool’s 2-in-a-row came a new record:

Record 3 in a row progression

Huddersfield Town were the first to win three successive title. Their successes came between 1923 and 1926 BUT they also were runners-up in 1926-27 & 1927-28 (missing it by 2 points).

Arsenal achieved the feat of 3-in-a-row between 1932 and 1935. The gunners had won the title in 1931 and were runners up in 1932 (missing it by only 2 points – 1 win), so came close to five.

Liverpool matched the 3-in-row between 1981 and 1984 but they’d come close to 5-in-a-row between 1975 and 1980 when they won the League in 1976, 1977, 1979 and 1980 and were second in 1978. In total Liverpool won 7 out of 9 between 1975 and 1983 (8 out of 11 too).

Manchester United were the next to achieve 3-in-a-row between 1998 and 2001. They had also won 7 out of 9 (1992 to 2001) and 8 out of 11. The years they managed 7 out of 9 saw them finish as runners up in the other two seasons, missing it by only 1 point in both 1994-95 and 1997-98. Rightly, this was heralded as a remarkable achievement.

Manchester United matched their own 3-in-a-row with another between 2006 and 2009. They also finished as either champions or runners up in the following four seasons. This meant that between 1992 and 2009 United had won 11 out of 17 titles and finished second in a further three.

Record 4 in a row setting

Manchester City are the only team to win 4-in-a-row English League titles. This remarkable feat has been achieved with title successes in 2020-21, 2021-22, 2022-23 and 2023-24. City also won consecutive League titles in 2018 and 2019 and were runners up in 2020. This means City have won 6 out of 7 Premier Leagues.

There have been a lot of people out there claiming that this year’s League title was a ‘foregone conclusion’ and that it was ‘boring’. As I pointed out last week that all depends on whether things become boring once your own team are unable to challenge, but for many neutrals it’s about title races going to the final day or ones that are close.

Did you know that only 10 of the Premier League’s 32 seasons have finished with 3 points or less separating the top two teams? In exactly 50% of those seasons Manchester City were the champions – more than any other club! Also, if you’re the kind of person who believes City are the ‘only’ team to challenge and that it’s a foregone conclusion then it may surprise you to learn that 62.5% of ALL City’s Premier League titles have been won by 2 points or less! That’s not even a victory – how close do you want it? How much less of a foregone conclusion works for you?

As a comparison only 15% of Manchester United’s Premier League titles have been won by 3 points or less! I know Liverpool have only won one title since the Premier League was created (yes, and many, many more before that of course!) which means that 100% of LFC’s Premier Leagues have been won by 18 points (that was a foregone conclusion and boring if we believe that the earlier the competition is won the more boring it is!).

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League Dominance?

Lots of tosh has been spoken recently about teams dominating English league football with some claiming that there’s ‘never’ been a time when a team has dominated as much as Manchester City do today. Ignoring the fact that the League campaign is not over yet and will go to the final day (so that’s a nonsense for a start) I decided to pull together a few facts that may be useful. They’re certainly relevant.

So, first of all, the question of whether Manchester City is the first to dominate in a way no other has before (again the season isn’t over and it could go either way yet, so ‘dominate’ is not something I believe anyway!)… City have currently won 3 League titles in a row. A feat that has been done several times before, most recently (before City) by Manchester United in 2006-09.

Ah, but City have won 5 out of 6 titles they say… Yes, but United won 7 out of the first 9 Premier Leagues and were runners up in the other 2. Liverpool achieved the same 7 out of 9 League titles in the 1970s and early 80s. We can’t predict the future of course but City have never managed seven titles in 9 seasons. In fact if City do win the League the stats will show it’s 7 in 11 seasons and at present it’s 7 titles in 12 seasons. So that means two other clubs have had longer spells as ‘dominant’ clubs using the language and phraseology that those criticising the reigning Champions usually use.

One of the other criticisms that’s thrown City’s way is about the Premier League being ‘boring’ because it’s a ‘foregone conclusion’ and ‘other teams have to be perfect’ to finish above City. Well, to be the best you have to beat the best but in terms of the League being ‘boring’ and a ‘foregone conclusion’ then the stats in terms of points gaps say otherwise.

Sure, City’s incredible 2017-18 season when they amassed 100 points was one in which the Blues ran away with the title, but it was also a rarity. City won the League by bettering second place by an astounding 19 points but, wait a minute, that amazing gap is only 1 point  more than the (18 point) gap between 2020 champions Liverpool and second placed City (at a time when City are supposed to be the dominant team!). Not only that but United had an 18 point gap between them and second placed Arsenal in 2000.

Worth noting too that in the 31 season history of the Premier League 14 runners-up teams bettered 2nd placed United’s points tally in 2017-18 when City achieved their 100 points. Surely, no title winning team can be blamed if the runners-up have worse results than in more than 45% of the competition’s seasonal history?

What about the ‘foregone conclusion’ and ‘boring’ line? Well, I suppose it can be argued it’s boring if the League is won many, many weeks before the end of the season. Using that logic it should also be ‘not boring’ if it goes down to the last game (like this season) or the last week (could be 2 or 3 games depending on fixture congestion). So I’ve had a look at how many seasons have finished with 3 points or less separating the top two teams. This shows that there have been 9 seasons when this has been the case. Guess what? 4 of those were seasons when City have won the Premier League (2 United, 1 Arsenal, Blackburn & Chelsea).

This means that 57% of all City’s Premier League title wins have been by less than 3 points! For United (13 PL titles) the figure is 15%; Arsenal (3 PL) it’s 33% and Chelsea (5 PL) is 20%.  Four of United’s PL titles have been won by 10 points or more.

Of course, title races can be exciting when teams win the League by ten points or more, but the argument many put across is that it’s boring when one team walks away with it. Surely there’s less chance of that happening when a team wins the title by less than 3 points?

There are lots of statistics that could be posted and, to be frank, they never actually tell the story of a season. How many times do we see possession stats that are in one club’s favour but the other team is actually winning? Nevertheless, when people try to suggest a season is boring because a club (any club) is running away with it then the stats can help show that something is not true. Similarly, when it comes to dominant football clubs – yes, there are eras of dominance by certain clubs and Manchester City certainly are a dominant club at the moment – we must not be fooled into thinking that a situation has NEVER happened before when it so obviously has (and other clubs may actually have been more dominant!).

Ah well! Football, hey? If only people actually looked at history more before jumping to conclusions.

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Champions City!

On 11 May 1968 Manchester City won the League title and on that same day in 2021 the Blues became Premier League champions. In 2021 City won the League after nearest rivals Manchester United lost 2-1 at home to Leicester City.

It was the Blues seventh League title with their first coming in 1937.

It was an astonishing season with City already winning the League Cup that season, plus they also reached the Champions League final where they were defeated in Porto by Chelsea. Manchester’s Blues also appeared in the FA Cup semi-final season but sadly lost to Chelsea.

The League and League Cup double meant that City had won six major trophies in three seasons.

City’s trophy success in 2021 meant that domestically counting the League, FA Cup and League Cup only United, Liverpool and Arsenal have won more English major trophies. Similarly, only United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Everton havd won more League titles than Manchester’s Blues.

2020-21 was an odd season because of Covid (as was 2019-20) and no fans in the stadium (though some clubs, including those on Merseyside, were allowed a limited number of fans in earlier this season), but the football City played was breathtaking.

Apart from a difficult opening period and a few odd results along the way, City delivered week after week (or should that be weekend after midweek after weekend after midweek – it was a busy season!). They thoroughly deserved the title.

So, by the end of the 2020-21 season City had won the following major honours:

European Cup Winners’ Cup (1)

1970

League/Premier League (7)

1937, 1968, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019 & 2021

(runners up: 1904, 1921, 1977, 2013, 2015 & 2020)

FA Cup (6)

1904, 1934, 1956, 1969, 2011 & 2019 

(runners up: 1926, 1933, 1955, 1981 & 2013)

League Cup (8)

1970, 1976, 2014, 2016, 2018, 2019, 2020 & 2021

(runners up: 1974)

In 2019 the Blues became the first English men’s team to win a domestic treble. In 2020-21 City achieved a domestic double of the League Cup and the League (a feat they also achieved in 2014 & 2018). Back in 1970 they achieved a European and domestic cup double when they won the League Cup and the European Cup Winners’ Cup.

City’s trophy haul made them the fifth most successful English club of all time based on major domestic and European trophies won (United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea are ahead of the Blues). In addition only Liverpool and Blackburn had a greater span between their first English trophy and their most recent.

Since 2020-21 so many other trophies have come of course, including in 2023 when City became the first team ever to win the FIFA Club World Cup, UEFA Super Cup, UEFA Champions League, the Premier League and the FA Cup in a calendar year.

If you enjoy all the free material on my website and would like to support my research and keep this website going (but don’t want to subscribe) then why not make a one-time donation (or buy me a coffee). All support for my research is valued and welcome. It allows me to keep some free material available for all. Thanks.

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Covid and the 2021 League Cup Final

How time flies! Today marks the anniversary (April 25) of the 2021 League Cup Final between Manchester City and Tottenham. It was the first (and only) League Cup Final played during any form of Covid lockdown in England. The 2020 final had been the last major final played in the country before the pandemic led to various lockdowns and then the continuation of football without fans.

Some football clubs, including Tottenham, had been allowed to have a limited number of supporters at their home games during the early stages of the 2020-21 Premier League season, but Manchester City had not as they were in a regional tier that prevented crowds. So, for many of us, the last physical game we attended was the 2020 League Cup final (some City fans did of course attend the 1-0 FA Cup victory at Sheffield Wednesday on March 4 and the Old Trafford derby of March 8 2020).

In the period between our last ‘live’ match and the 2021 League Cup final we had to sit at home watching City’s games played in empty stadia or, occasionally, at grounds with a small number of fans in but never with any ordinary City fans in. Former City star Mike Summerbee, the club’s ambassador, would often be seen, masked-up, at games when TV camera crews recognised him and it was always nice to know there was at least one person steeped in MCFC history there.

When the announcement came that the delayed League Cup Final (it was postponed until April in the hope that fans could attend) was to have up to 8,000 fans at Wembley there were then several dilemmas for fans. This was to be a test event and almost 2,000 tickets were to be issued to each competing club, which fans would have to pay for, and 4,000 would be given away to residents around Wembley and some NHS staff. 

Many fans felt it was unfair that Wembley residents would be given tickets (each could apply to bring a guest too) while fans paid and there were the usual concerns about balance of support – would the fact that tickets were to be given to local residents benefit Spurs for example? 

Most fans had no issue with NHS staff being given tickets with some Blues suggesting that NHS staff (and other key workers) who were season ticket holders of the two clubs should be offered the tickets. Lots of other suggestions were made plus, of course, some fans felt it would only be appropriate to attend a major game like this when ALL fans would be allowed back, though that still seemed some way off in April 2021.

To attend the final Manchester City used their loyalty points system and cup scheme as usual but then there was an added layer where fans had to live in certain postcodes: M, SK, BL, OL, WA, WN, PR, FY, BB, LA, CH, CW, BD, HD and HX​ and Greater London. In addition we had to have covid tests in the build-up to the final, including a lateral flow test that had to be performed at a test centre after 1.30pm on the Saturday before Sunday’s final. 

This was difficult for many to arrange as, for example, some of the councils within the postcodes allowed did not have test sites available at weekend. Some booked to have tests close to Wembley, which caused some logistical issues on cup final day, and others had to travel in to Manchester on the Saturday. Inevitably, some did not get negative tests back in time and missed out.

Those lucky enough to get hold of tickets also had to state their method of travel with a limited number of car parking spaces meaning that option simply was not available for some fans. Specific coach and train travel was set up but the costs were prohibitive for some. Others pointed out their concern that once the trains arrived at Euston (or Watford) there would still be a need to travel to the stadium itself. To some this negated the need for travel on specific trains or coaches, but of course the conditions had been imposed by the Government and footballing authorities, not by the competing clubs.

At the stadium on match day the surrounding area seemed full of shoppers trying to pick up a bargain at the retail store but fans seemed few and far between. The photo above (Wembley Way looking towards the stadium) was taken about one hour before kick off. This would normally be packed at this time.

Close to the stadium the Wembley Way ramps that used to carry people up to the stadium have been demolished and a series of steps have been erected instead. Fans had to show their lateral flow test results, tickets, and photographic ID before being allowed up the steps to the stadium. They had to queue at these checkpoints and then, once they’d been allowed through they could make their way up to the stadium turnstiles. They were discouraged from waiting outside the stadium and were encouraged to go to the turnstile.

In previous years drinks had been allowed into the stadium if they were in plastic bottles and the lids were removed. This year no drinks, not even water, were allowed in the stadium, but staff did allow fans to carry in plastic bottles (without lids) as there were water fountains inside (typically positioned near the disabled toilets) and these could be filled up there. This is well worth remembering if you need to have drinks for medical purposes but do not want to pay Wembley’s expensive prices.

In the stadium bars and catering outlets were open as usual and while there was a considerably smaller number of fans within the concourse area, social distancing was not particularly in evidence. Having said that all fans had been tested but supporters were unclear whether Wembley staff, security, stewards and so on had been tested. 

In the bowl of the stadium all fans had been positioned in the same stand plus the corners. This was the stand containing the Royal Box and directly opposite the TV cameras. The cynic would suggest that this demonstrated, as always, that some think the TV spectacle is more important than those in the stadium. Surely congestion in the toilets and other areas could have been eased had fans been spaced out in a wider area, or even if they’d have chosen blocks around the stadium with perhaps Spurs fans on one side or end and City in the opposite stand? If it’s pure safety then that would be the logical thing to do.

In the seats we were positioned predominantly in alternate seats with the row behind and in front of us following a pattern which was supposed to mean that there would be no one directly in front or behind of you. As some fans were in groups/families who had travelled together they sometimes moved next to others in their group on the same row – officially we were told that wasn’t allowed but inevitably it happened (we all wanted to be next to the people we’d gone to the game with and didn’t want the seat gap) and no one tried to stop it. 

During the game stewards regularly reminded fans that they had to wear face masks throughout – from the moment we had shown our test results and tickets through to leaving the stadium after the presentations we had to be masked up. Of course, when eating or drinking masks were lowered.

Throughout our time in the bowl of the stadium fans would be moving along the rows to their places, and so social distancing was not possible at those times.

After the game we were free to leave en masse if we wanted. As City won the cup most City fans stayed for the presentations and left at various points during the celebrations, meaning there wasn’t a crush to get out. Spurs fans seemed more keen to leave of course, but whether this caused any issues I do not know. Presumably, social distancing is impossible to manage when an entire section chooses to leave at the same time.

If you were one of the lucky ones who had managed to get a car parking space it was refreshing to travel away from Wembley without the huge traffic jams we normally experience. There were roadworks and a few problems on the motorway but nothing like normal.

So, that was the general experience of attending as a Manchester City fan at the first game we’ve been allowed to attend as City fans in over a year. It’s not the story of the game but I hope it gives an idea as to how the crowd management happened.

Several years on this experience now seems alien again but back then it was refreshing to be able to actually attend a game.

Ferran Torres Coincidence

Today (21 September) is the anniversary of Ferran Torres’ first League game from Manchester City AND the anniversary of his last game for City. Considering he played more than one game this is quite a coincidence. His first League appearance was on 21 September 2020 against Wolves and his last was exactly one year later on 21 September 2021 against Wycombe in the League Cup.

The Wolves game ended in a 3-1 City victory. Highlights here:

https://www.mancity.com/citytv/mens/wolves-v-man-city-extended-highlights-1-63736312

The Wycombe match ended in a 6-1 City win and can be seen here:

https://www.mancity.com/citytv/mens/manchester-city-6-1-wycombe-match-highlights-63767857

Istanbul 2023 & Vienna 1970 – ‘I was there’ interview

In the aftermath of Manchester City’s 2023 Champions League success I hoped to find a Blue who had been to both the 2023 final and the club’s previous European trophy success in 1970. I was eventually contacted by Colin Smith who did go to both (and he also went to Porto in 2021 too!) and we decided to have a chat about it. We ended up talking for about one hour comparing the finals and discussing Colin’s trips both as a youngster in 1970 and then as a grandfather in 2023.

The interview took place a while ago and at that time Colin had been to three MCFC European finals. Since then of course he has also been to Athens to watch City win the Super Cup too.

You can now hear our interview here. It’s well worth a listen, especially if you’re a fan who didn’t get chance to go to those finals. Here goes:

1970 ECWC

I hope you enjoy the interview. I have other interviews (both audio and written) here on my website available to subscribers, so why not subscribe? Details here:

Reaching A First CL Final

On 4 May 2021 Manchester City reached the final of the Champions League for the first time in their history when they defeated Paris St Germain 2-0 with both goals from Mahrez. The first leg had ended with a 2-1 City win. This meant Manchester became only the second non-capital city to have had two teams reach a European Cup final. Manchester was of course the first British city to have two teams competing in the European Cup in the same season (1968-69).

Manager Pep Guardiola was somewhat pleased to say the least: ‘I’m incredibly proud and my first thoughts are with the players who didn’t play today. They all deserved to play, everyone has made a contribution and now it is time to enjoy it. We have to win the league and we have two or three weeks to prepare for the final.

‘They put a lot of players in the middle and we struggled a lot in the first half to high press and we changed at half-time. We recovered the ball better in the second half and we were much better in the way we played and 4-1 on aggregate against a team that beat Barcelona and Bayern Munich means a lot to us.

‘People believe it’s easy to arrive in the final of the Champions League. Getting to the final now makes sense of what we have done in the past four or five years.’

The game was played in unseasonal snow but the brilliant Riyad Mahrez was able to adapt well, scoring from a move started by goalkeeper Ederson’s 60-yard pass.

There had been a bit of a scare for City when a penalty was awarded to PSG for a handball by Oleksandr Zinchenko but it was correctly overturned. Phew!

Mahrez netted his second of the night just after the hour when he turned in Phil Foden’s cross at the far post to effectively end the tie.

PSG once again lost their discipline (Idrissa Gueye was sent off late in the first leg) and former United man Angel di Maria was shown a red card for a senseless stamp on Fernandinho.

City were in full control and you can watch highlights here:

https://www.mancity.com/citytv/mens/manchester-city-psg-champions-league-semi-final-second-leg-63755763

That night was remarkable and several records were established:

  • City broke the record for longest winning run by an English club in European Cup history (7)
  • They became the first English side to win 11 games in a single European Cup/Champions League campaign (they are one off equalling Real Madrid’s record of 12 games)

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The First Noel and More

In the build up to MCFC’s ChampionsLeague final the other year I interviewed musician Noel Gallagher about his support for City. Here are the first 15 minutes of that interview.

https://gjfootballarchive.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/noel-gallagher-first-15-minutes.mp3 

If you enjoyed that you can listen to part two and the other sections via the following links. Subscribers to my site get access to hundreds of articles, recordings (such as my earlier interviews with Malcolm Allison & John Bond). There’s also lots of free content on the site. If you enjoy this and would like to support my research, the site etc. then why not donate a couple of pounds to pay the website’s bills and help fund detailed research into football’s history. You can do that lower down this page. Thanks.

Now, here’s part two:

Part three:

Part four:

Part five:

If you enjoy all the free material on my website and would like to support my research and keep this website going (but don’t want to subscribe) then why not make a one-time donation (or buy me a coffee). All support for my research is valued and welcome. It allows me to keep some free material available for all. Thanks.

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