Category Archives: Manchester Derbies

Driving back from Wembley last Saturday both Talksport and BBC Radio 5 Live had phone-in shows where the question kept being brought up about comparing Manchester United’s treble in 1999 with the possibility of City managing the same achievement this year. Obviously, a football game can go any direction and no success is guaranteed ever, so I am absolutely not going to talk as if something has been achieved when it hasn’t. If City do manage this incredible feat then the comparisons are likely to be made again BUT how sensible is this?

I am against making these comparisons because I think they’re futile. A bit like when I asked former City player Johnny Williamson, who had played with both Frank Swift and Bert Trautmann, which was best. He said: ‘It doesn’t matter. You pick one and I’ll pick the other because the two of them were head and shoulders above the rest!’

United’s treble in 1999 was absolutely incredible and a major achievement. If City manage the same this weekend then that will also be incredible and a major achievement. Which is best doesn’t matter and even if it did can we really do an accurate comparison? 24 years is a long time in football and the game changes so much in that time.

Much has been made about where City were in 1999 (winning promotion from ‘new’ Division Two) when United won their treble. People have said: ‘How can a team go from promotion challengers to potential treble winners in 24 years?’ Well, guess where United were 24 years before their treble…. they were promotion challengers in ‘old’ Division Two!

In the years that followed United’s promotion in 1975 they had a few peaks and troughs as City have. It wasn’t until 1993 (18 years after promotion) that they won the League for the first time since the 1960s but they had won the FA Cup 2 years after promotion. It took City only 13 years after their 1999 promotion to win the League but the FA Cup came in 2011 (12 years after the 1999 promotion). Both clubs spent a lot of money to find those first successes with City receiving Abu Dhabi investment and United borrowing heavily (the increasing level of debt was frequently raised by shareholders back then who questioned whether the club could sustain making purchases like they had to create the most expensive British team ever up to that point) to fund Ferguson’s first successful team.

Comparisons would need to look into every aspect of both clubs – for example Pep’s team are the only team to win a domestic treble as well, so does that elevate their current achievements? Similarly, Ferguson led United to a period of sustained success and dominance that no one else has matched so far. Comparisons are really fairly pointless.

To United fans their treble will always be the best and to City fans, if the club is lucky enough to achieve the same, that will be the best. For most neutrals it will be ‘so what?’, although they’ll downplay any success by a rival. I remember in 1999 someone phoning in a BBC radio show after United had won the Champions League for the second time. The caller was a Nottingham Forest fan who had got fed up with all the praise being heaped on United and, like many United fans today about City, he felt his club was more worthy. He said something like: ‘You keep going on about this United team but what have they done? They’ve just matched what Forest and Brian Clough achieved years ago. We’ve had two European Cups for years and our team was better and cheaper than this lot!’

It’s all a game to fill programmes and articles. It’s not needed. If you think about it 24 years is an extremely long time. If both Manchester clubs can go from promotion chasing teams to European finals in those years then that’s some journey. You have to be well into your 30s to stand a chance of being able to compare 1999 and 2023 and for anyone under that age it’s ancient history and another ‘so what?’.

When United won the treble in 1999 I was an adult with two kids and was just in my 30s. I’d written four major books on Manchester football (including the Pride of Manchester on Manchester derby matches) by this time and had researched the history of both clubs in-depth, so I did get interviewed a lot by TV and radio. I was perceived as an expert, but if you’d have asked me to compare United’s 1975 promotion team with City’s 1999 promotion team I would’ve had to admit I was too young to appreciate what United’s 1975 achievement was like. I’d be able to quote journalists and interviewees but I couldn’t give an honest view which group of players was better. It’s the same now, yet we’ve a whole range of people offering views who are either invested in one club or who are too young to be able to talk with knowledge about it. In any case football in 2023 is somewhat different to football in 1999 – just as that was so different from 1975 and that so different from 1951.

Maybe we should have filled phone-ins after City had won the double on Saturday with questions like: ‘How does City’s League and Cup double compare with past doubles? Was this City team better than Preston in 1889?’ It’s ludicrous to even try.