Congratulations to West Ham on your success in last night’s Europa Conference League. Great news for your club and for those clubs who wonder whether competitions like this are a drain or something to aim for. I’ve now updated the table showing the span of success – i.e. the number of years between a club’s first major success (FA Cup, League, League Cup, European trophy) and their most recent. West Ham have jumped some way up that list.
Okay, the span of success does not show how many trophies each club has won or how frequently that club has experienced great eras of success, but it does demonstrate how wrong those people are who believe certain clubs were unsuccessful until recent years, or those who think certain clubs have always been giants. The column on first major success helps to show when some clubs first became trophy-winning significant (often after transformational investment).
West Ham have proved that if you’re a club that hasn’t won a major trophy for a while putting your focus on achieving trophy success ahead of the odd Premier League position can bring significant reward. In future decades no one will remember who finished seventh, tenth or fifteenth but they will remember the trophies.
I know clubs focus on their financials but winning a trophy has longevity, gaining the odd Premier League place provides a bit of extra cash now but no long term kudos. Winning a trophy attracts new fans and brings money-spinning opportunities too.
If I was a supporter of Everton, Aston Villa or any of the other major clubs who have not found significant success in recent decades then I would absolutely want my team to go for whichever cup competition seems most likely to win. That’s what I always wanted from City before they were able to compete for the League again. Winning the FA Cup in 2011 helped everything that followed happen.
While you’re here… why not take a look at the free to read daily Maine Road features counting down to the old stadium’s 100th anniversary of its first game? Here are a sample couple of features (follow the Maine Road tag or search for more):
For many, many years Dave Masey has been collecting stats and historical information on Manchester City. Like me he was a member of the Association of Football Statisticians and he has helped me often over the years. Following Saturday’s FA Cup final he got in touch with me to tell me about one of his spreadsheets which holds details of City scorers in trophy winning games.
His records capture those who have scored in major cup finals, but besides Cup Finals he also records other trophy-winning games. These include the deciding League games from 1937 onwards against Sheffield Wednesday (1937), Newcastle, QPR, West Ham, Brighton and Villa (2022), but nothing from three recent title successes where the Blues clinched the title when they were not playing. Got that? Good, now….
Dave tells me that Gundogan is now at the top of the list with 5 goals, overtaking Neil Young and Sergio Aguero. So he has scored more goals in trophy-winning games than any other Blue.
The list of scorers in trophy winning games reads:
1904
Meredith
1934/7
Tilson (3), Brook (2), Doherty
1956
Hayes, Dyson, Johnstone
1968/70
Young (4), Lee (2), Summerbee, Doyle, Pardoe
1976
P Barnes, Tueart
2011-(former)
Aguero (4), Y Toure (2), Nasri (2), Kompany (2), D Silva (2),Jesus (2), Sterling (2), Dzeko, Zabaleta, Navas, Fernandinho
2016-(current)
Gundogan (5), Laporte (2), Rodri (2), Mahrez, De Bruyne
Dave also tells me that in the three seasons where somebody else’s defeat clinched the title for City, the scorers in the club’s last game before the title confirmation were:
Gundogan (3), Sterling (2), Jesus, Haaland.
As Dave says, Ilkay gets a remarkable number of important goals, particularly for somebody who is ‘just’ a 1 goal in 5 games player (60 in 303 for City). Certainly this season he has played a true leader’s role and, looking at his place in this table, he is clearly a man for all trophy-winning seasons.
Driving back from Wembley last Saturday both Talksport and BBC Radio 5 Live had phone-in shows where the question kept being brought up about comparing Manchester United’s treble in 1999 with the possibility of City managing the same achievement this year. Obviously, a football game can go any direction and no success is guaranteed ever, so I am absolutely not going to talk as if something has been achieved when it hasn’t. If City do manage this incredible feat then the comparisons are likely to be made again BUT how sensible is this?
I am against making these comparisons because I think they’re futile. A bit like when I asked former City player Johnny Williamson, who had played with both Frank Swift and Bert Trautmann, which was best. He said: ‘It doesn’t matter. You pick one and I’ll pick the other because the two of them were head and shoulders above the rest!’
United’s treble in 1999 was absolutely incredible and a major achievement. If City manage the same this weekend then that will also be incredible and a major achievement. Which is best doesn’t matter and even if it did can we really do an accurate comparison? 24 years is a long time in football and the game changes so much in that time.
Much has been made about where City were in 1999 (winning promotion from ‘new’ Division Two) when United won their treble. People have said: ‘How can a team go from promotion challengers to potential treble winners in 24 years?’ Well, guess where United were 24 years before their treble…. they were promotion challengers in ‘old’ Division Two!
Martin Buchan and Alex Stepney celebrating United’s promotion in 1975 at Old Trafford
In the years that followed United’s promotion in 1975 they had a few peaks and troughs as City have. It wasn’t until 1993 (18 years after promotion) that they won the League for the first time since the 1960s but they had won the FA Cup 2 years after promotion. It took City only 13 years after their 1999 promotion to win the League but the FA Cup came in 2011 (12 years after the 1999 promotion). Both clubs spent a lot of money to find those first successes with City receiving Abu Dhabi investment and United borrowing heavily (the increasing level of debt was frequently raised by shareholders back then who questioned whether the club could sustain making purchases like they had to create the most expensive British team ever up to that point) to fund Ferguson’s first successful team.
Comparisons would need to look into every aspect of both clubs – for example Pep’s team are the only team to win a domestic treble as well, so does that elevate their current achievements? Similarly, Ferguson led United to a period of sustained success and dominance that no one else has matched so far. Comparisons are really fairly pointless.
To United fans their treble will always be the best and to City fans, if the club is lucky enough to achieve the same, that will be the best. For most neutrals it will be ‘so what?’, although they’ll downplay any success by a rival. I remember in 1999 someone phoning in a BBC radio show after United had won the Champions League for the second time. The caller was a Nottingham Forest fan who had got fed up with all the praise being heaped on United and, like many United fans today about City, he felt his club was more worthy. He said something like: ‘You keep going on about this United team but what have they done? They’ve just matched what Forest and Brian Clough achieved years ago. We’ve had two European Cups for years and our team was better and cheaper than this lot!’
It’s all a game to fill programmes and articles. It’s not needed. If you think about it 24 years is an extremely long time. If both Manchester clubs can go from promotion chasing teams to European finals in those years then that’s some journey. You have to be well into your 30s to stand a chance of being able to compare 1999 and 2023 and for anyone under that age it’s ancient history and another ‘so what?’.
When United won the treble in 1999 I was an adult with two kids and was just in my 30s. I’d written four major books on Manchester football (including the Pride of Manchester on Manchester derby matches) by this time and had researched the history of both clubs in-depth, so I did get interviewed a lot by TV and radio. I was perceived as an expert, but if you’d have asked me to compare United’s 1975 promotion team with City’s 1999 promotion team I would’ve had to admit I was too young to appreciate what United’s 1975 achievement was like. I’d be able to quote journalists and interviewees but I couldn’t give an honest view which group of players was better. It’s the same now, yet we’ve a whole range of people offering views who are either invested in one club or who are too young to be able to talk with knowledge about it. In any case football in 2023 is somewhat different to football in 1999 – just as that was so different from 1975 and that so different from 1951.
Paul Dickov at Wembley 1999
Maybe we should have filled phone-ins after City had won the double on Saturday with questions like: ‘How does City’s League and Cup double compare with past doubles? Was this City team better than Preston in 1889?’ It’s ludicrous to even try.
Ahead of West Ham’s European final tomorrow night (7 June) I thought I’d post the latest update to the table showing the span of success – i.e. the number of years between a club’s first major success (FA Cup, League, League Cup, European trophy) and their most recent. If West Ham win tomorrow they will leap ahead of Leicester City.
This season has seen City overtake Blackburn Rovers and they are now second to Liverpool.
Okay, the span of success does not show how many trophies each club has won or how frequently that club has experienced great eras of success, but it does demonstrate how wrong those people are who believe certain clubs were unsuccessful until recent years, or those who think certain clubs have always been giants. The column on first major success helps to show when some clubs first became trophy-winning significant (often after transformational investment).
While you’re here… why not take a look at the free to read daily Maine Road features counting down to the old stadium’s 100th anniversary of its first game? Here are a sample couple of features (follow the Maine Road tag or search for more):
Well, the first all-Manchester FA Cup final has been and gone but what a day? Before any major fixture you hope that it will live up to the hype and, as a historian, I always hope that something different than normal will occur, or a record will be broken.
I’m always keen on pointing out that history is made every day and that historians have to constantly re-evaluate what stories they are telling if they want to represent and record society as it changes. I am totally against those that think history is something that doesn’t move with the times and I always try to think about those who may be experiencing something for the first time. City’s 2023 FA Cup success could easily be the earliest footballing memory for some and what a memory it will be!
As I entered the stadium the entry gate and stairway I used had the usual years and landmark moments decorating its walls and I did notice the comment about the fastest goal in a FA Cup final (it claimed Di Matteo’s goal after 43 seconds was still the record, so that needed updating even before the game!). I didn’t expect any goal to occur in the first few minutes of the game, never mind the first few seconds. More on that in a moment.
The journey to Wembley was more difficult than normal, due to the rail strike and the fact so many were going down the same routes. The route I took, mostly M1, seemed busier than normal (normal – it’s ‘normal’ going to Wembley now!) but it was mostly City fans I saw. I’m sure others experienced something else but for me there were the occasional United vehicles. Most of the cars and coaches that I saw with colours showing (scarves out the window is an absolute must on days like these for many of us!) were blue not red. That reminded me a lot of the 2011 FA Cup semi final when every City car we saw was full of happy, laughing, smiling City fans pre-match but United fans seemed more serious or concerned with what the day would bring. The similarities between the two days were striking.
Traffic jams meant the journey was longer than anticipated but once we parked up in our usual spot (‘usual’, ‘normal’ – I hope that never changes) we were ready. A quick wander around was followed by buying the programme. I had two articles in this year’s FA Cup final programme – one on City & United’s first FA Cup successes in 1904 and 1909 and another was a peaks and troughs sort of timeline. Both pieces were neutral and I was delighted to be asked to contribute to the programme once more.
Inside the stadium the tickets we had bought were up at the back of level 5 block 546. Coincidentally just before kick off the people on the row behind us arrived and one was Ian Brightwell, one of the players when City defeated United in the only previous All-Manchester FA final (that was the 1986 FA Youth Cup).
As for the game. Well, what an opener! We’d not had chance to settle really when Gundogan netted that wonderful strike. I remember looking straight up to the video screen and seeing the clock change from 12 to 13 seconds. Incredible.
As Brightwell was behind me I couldn’t resist turning to him and saying ‘I see Gundogan “just wellied it!” like you did in 1990.’ For those that don’t remember or are too young Brightwell did a similar goal from several yards out in an Old Trafford derby in 1990. Afterwards while being interviewed he was asked about the goal but the interview kept being interrupted and so he had to answer the question multiple times. On the last occasion he simply answered: ‘I just wellied it!’ and the phrase entered City folklore.
There was the penalty given to United of course – I won’t go into the rights and wrongs of that but i do want to mention VAR. I find it absolutely ridiculous that those of us who have spent considerable time and effort in getting to Wembley and attending the final are the ones who knew least about what was going on. We had nothing on the screen to tell us a check was in progress; we had no opportunity to see the video clips and we only knew it was being reviewed when the ref stopped the game (after some time too! What if a player had been injured or another goal had been scored in the meantime?) and went over to the monitor.
The moment he headed towards the monitor we knew something was going to be given because I can’t think of a time when a ref has stuck to his guns in England (I’m sure it’s happened but I don’t remember).
The penalty changed the mood for a while, but City fans were in good voice when the second half started and it seemed inevitable then that the Blues would score again. I don’t think any of us expected Gundogan to be the man again but over these last few months he’s clearly led by example. He deserved the man of the final award and hopefully he’ll get further honours this season.
So the game ended 2-1 and City have achieved a coveted double again (last time was the only time an English club had won a domestic treble!). Brilliant work City and the season isn’t over yet!
It was wonderful to see the players celebrate. Those celebrations on the pitch demonstrated how much this all meant to them. People often try to suggest a domestic cup isn’t anything special but it absolutely is. How many of us have ever won a FA Cup? These players were outstanding and deserve tremendous praise, as does the manager of course.
People talk about money but City are not the biggest spenders either in actual outflow terms or in net spend terms. Like Alex Ferguson and United in the late 1980s/early 1990s, City have spent money on players to find success. Also, like United at that time trophy success brings additional income, gate receipts, prize money, sponsorship etc. which in turn can be used to invest in youth development and finding ways to sustain success. There’s no point going on about this but I do wish that people looked at the history of football and focused on fact rather than the fiction that often gets spouted.
On the way home there was a lot of talk on the radio about possible trebles and it was interesting that almost every phone-in I could find was trying to compare United’s 1999 treble with the possibility of City winning one this season. Who knows how Saturday will go and I won’t get drawn into that but I do want to say that United winning the treble was an incredible achievement. If City manage to do the same this year then that will also be an incredible achievement. So much has changed in 24 years that comparisons are ridiculous.
Actually, I did hear on the radio one presenter go on about how City have spent because ‘in 1999 when United were winning their treble they were getting promoted’ (paraphrased but basically that comment). Had I been able to call in I might have done because 24 years ago that is true but it is also true that 24 years before 1999 United were also getting promoted. It’s a similarity people have overlooked, but if somehow it is wrong for City to go from struggling team to potential treble winners in 24 years then surely it would also be wrong for United to do the same? Ah well! Facts not fiction.
When City got back to Manchester they were greeted by Elton John who, it has been said, waited to meet and congratulate them. The videos and photos are wonderful to watch. Noel Gallagher may have to watch out – usually he’s the one singing along with Pep and the players after a major trophy success.
While you are here why not have a look at the 100 day countdown I’m doing to mark the centenary of Maine Road’s first game? You can do a search on Maine Road or start by looking at this one:
As it’s FA Cup final day I thought I’d make my Maine Road post about the first Manchester derby in the FA Cup to be played at the old stadium… that was in 1955. It’s day 17 of my posts counting down to the centenary of Maine Road’s opening game.
The first FA Cup Manchester derby at Maine Road was played on 29 January 1955 and ended in a 2-0 City win. Subscribers to this site can read the full story of the game below:
Subscribe to get access – Monthly
Read more of this content when you subscribe today. It costs £3 per month (cancel anytime) or £20 a year (see below). For full details on what benefits you get see ‘How To Subscribe’ further down this page.
Read more of this content when you subscribe today. It costs £3 per month (above) or £20 a year (here). For full details on what benefits you get see ‘How To Subscribe’ further down this page.
For those unfamiliar with Maine Road the photo below may help locate where the above was taken from. It was taken looking towards the Popular Side (later Kippax) at the Platt Lane End. Basically the goals near 3 looking towards the tunnel at 8.
Maine Road aerial 1971 from Farewell To Maine Road
If you’d like to read more on the history of Maine Road, take a look at Farewell To Maine Road, which can be downloaded from this page:
If you enjoy all the free material on my website and would like to support my research and keep this website going (but don’t want to subscribe) then why not make a one-time donation (or buy me a coffee). All support for my research is valued and welcome. It allows me to keep some free material available for all. Thanks.
Looking forward to the first ever all Manchester FA Cup final at Wembley tomorrow. To get in the mood why not watch the highlights of the 2011 FA Cup semi here (follow the link):
Prior to this year’s final, the FA Cup semi finals in 1926 and 2011 were the closest we got to one. I wasn’t around in 1926 but I definitely was in 2011! So a couple of years ago I made this special audio recording talking about the years building up to the semi and the day itself from a Manchester City perspective. Many of you have listened to this already but if you haven’t then it tells the story of the 2011 FA Cup semi final and the years between 1976 and that moment in 2011 for City.
I include audio from interviews I did with a variety of people including Khaldoon, Peter Swales, Garry Cook, Brain Marwood and many others.
If you have heard it before then maybe you should listen again to remind yourself of how we all felt and why that game was so significant.
I include a few words from Roberto Mancini recorded in 2011 and at one point he talks about the view that was then being expressed that City were ‘trying’ to buy success (now they say City ‘have’ bought success!). His words are a reminder that City have been having that particular criticism thrown at them for over a decade! Oh well, I wonder how long those criticisms were laid at other clubs who had seen major investment which propelled them forward?
Anyway, get yourself a brew and be prepared to be transported back in time. Here’s the recording:
If you enjoy the recording then please let me know, comment or subscribe to the site. If you don’t fancy doing that then there’s also the option to make a welcome donation to keep this site going (see below). I’ve produced videos/talks like this highlighting key points in Manchester City’s footballing history which subscribers can watch too.
If you enjoy all the free material on my website and would like to support my research and keep this website going (but don’t want to subscribe) then why not make a one-time donation (or buy me a coffee). All support for my research is valued and welcome. It allows me to keep some free material available for all. Thanks.
Read more of this content when you subscribe today. It costs £20 a year to subscribe (it works out £1.67 a month) or £3 if you’d like to sign up a month at a time. Annual subscribers get full access for as long as you subscribe (you can always try it for a month). It’s worth bearing in mind that the 2010 Manchester A Football History cost £24.95 and all subscribers will be able to access all of that for as long as they are a subscriber (plus all the other stuff of course).
It costs £3 a month to subscribe a month at a time. Why not give it a try! Monthly subscribers get access to everything posted since 1 October 2022 for as long as you subscribe.
As part of their All-Manchester FA Cup features the Athletic have asked their writers about the most important FA Cup final. Well, as it’s a City-Utd final then it makes sense to highlight the first ever FA Cup final featuring one of the teams. In 1904 Manchester found its first major trophy success and that led to Manchester being established as a footballing city. It’s part of the reason Manchester City retained a special place in the hearts and minds of Mancunians, even when the success faded.
The captain and goalscorer was the great Billy Meredith. The other year, following the purchase of the oldest surviving FA Cup by Sheikh Mansour (to loan to the National Football Museum) I helped Manchester City with the story of the cup and its significance to Manchester. They’ve produced a video telling the story and it can be viewed here:
My latest article on football for Manchester Confidential is now live. It’s about the All-Manchester FA Cup final. It also asks a simple trivia question: can you name all the previous Greater Manchester FA Cup finals? For the answer to that and the article see:
As we now build up to the first all-Manchester FA Cup final and at a time when Manchester will, regardless of who wins, sweep up all the major domestic trophies, I think it’s worth pausing to think about the city’s earliest clubs. I’ve done lots of research over the years on Manchester’s football origins and published both books and articles about it. Some of these are free to download. So why not take a look at the following article which briefly tells the story of Hulme Athenaeum – the earliest known association football club in Manchester (and Lancashire for that matter!):
The article also talks about other Manchester clubs, most significantly Manchester AFC who paved the way for City & United.
Worth noting the stuff about John Nall – the Hulme secretary and a founder of Manchester AFC. That man is often forgotten but he remained involved with football from Hulme’s formation through to his death in the late 1890s. He was present at several key moments in the formative years of Manchester City and was a key figure behind the Manchester FA. His story needs to be remembered.
Some have suggested that Hulme played rugby not football and it is fair to say that as the rules of football were developing there were many variations across the country. However, both Nall and others I’ve researched believed they were playing association football and his direct and active involvement with both the Manchester FA & the Lancashire FA proves he knew what ‘football’ was. Hulme played association football.
If you enjoy all the free material on my website and would like to support my research and keep this website going (but don’t want to subscribe) then why not make a one-time donation (or buy me a coffee). All support for my research is valued and welcome. It allows me to keep some free material available for all. Thanks.
Gary James' Football Archive 